Let's talk about Saddle Riggings

[Cowboy Crafts Online]

One thing I would like to add that Rod does with his trees is highlights the center line they use when building the tree, before they rawhide the tree. I know this helps me find my center line alot faster then when I use to do it.

One thing I use to check my riggings side to side is a cross fire laser level from black and decker. once you have the rigging set your can shoot the laser down the center line then use the cross laser to check the riggings to be square with each other.

Ashley

[Alan Bell]

Hey Jane, Glad to have you here, too. I just returned from getting a new stud and a couple of mares from Roeliff and we had a little discussion of saddle fit in regards to our Spanish Mustangs and Wade saddle trees. On your saddle and tree it looks from the picture that the top edge of the bar is above the horses back which suggest that the full width of the bar is not in contact with the horses back. Roeliff had a Steve Mecum saddle built on a Ray Hunt tree and the bars are actually wider and the gullet width narrower and we compared this to another Mark Byrum Wade built on a Warren Wright tree by placing both saddles on a Spanish Mustang, a Lusitano and a Quarter Horse without a pad and having Roeliff mount without having the girth tightened. While the saddles all fit each horse's back they fit each horse differently. Roeliff was able to mount them fairly easily with little movement and little stress to the horses withers because the saddles all 'fit' even if they fit differently for each horse, Roeliff's weight was evenly distributed while mounting. I also noticed that the rear girth is pulled forward towards the front girth, is this by design or did it slide there because of movement? I believe that Dave's is trying to move the rider as far forward as possible to maintain the position over the horses center of balance so he has a fair amount of flair to the bars to not interfere with the shoulder movement but it appears dangerously close to applying too much pressure at the point where contact with the horses back ends and the bars flare away. This would become evident if the horse doesn't stand still for mounting. It would also be nice to see where you end up sitting when you are mounted. I wish I had taken more pictures when we were farting around up there! Say hello to the folks up there and hope to see you while the weather is nice!

[zenjane]

We'd love to see you again Alan! And I would have enjoyed seeing the saddle pictures with Roeliff too. With Dave's saddle it will slip back a smidgeon (an inch or so) when you are mounted in it, to sit in just the right place. I've been riding in Dave's saddles for a couple of years now (both Wes and I own one) and none of our horses figet when being mounted nor do they move off before being asked to. They've seemed very happy with the saddle fit, and as you well know, our horses do not suffer pain very long before LETTING YOU KNOW TO GET OFF!! NOW! . The cinch is where it is supposed to be and it is girthed as tight as the front cinch. There is a lot of flair to the bars and therefore a lot of room for the shoulder, even with well laid back shoulders such as our horses have, and it works really well with their short backs.

Now, Dave, if I have said anything here that is an error, please do correct me!

[David Genadek]

Since a saddle can be placed wherever the tree was designed to be placed rigging position relative to the saddle becomes a moot point. What about position relative to the horse? Where do you want the cinch and why?

There is one shape of horse where the under line does effect the fit of the saddle.

Horses or mules that have an onion shaped rib cage often have an under line that narrows quickly in the front making the cinch slide forwards which in turn pulls the saddle forward. Many of these mustangs have this problem but it has been handled effectively for a long time in the world of mules by using a packer’s cinch.

I break rigging into two categories configuration and position. I have found the configuration element to be of greater value to me than position. I think of the saddle as a rocking chair and I want the middle of the rung to have constant contact. I have attached pdf file of how I look at configuration.

David Genadek

rigging_configuration.pdf

rigging_configuration.pdf

[AZThunderPony]

Amazing David, Great observation of the round ribcage to narrowed but deep girth that is a norm on most Spanish Mustangs. But not necessarily normal for BLM mustangs.

I have used a packers cinch many time with my SM's to save them from gall and sore ribs. My question is why not make a tree that allows for a rigiging that hangs naturally where it belongs on Spanish Mustangs in the first place? I undertstand that as a norm there are few SM owners running around ordering specialized trees. But when one does arrive on the scene it would be nice that tree makers and saddle makers would have a notion what type of tree, rigging and other details are necesasary to fit that owners horse.

Spanish Mustangs are a very versatile horse, How about fitting a SM for varied diciplines? Working Cow or Ranch Horse Competitions, Endurance, Jumping, Gaiting, Dressage, Cutting, Barrels and much more??? What about fitting one horse for all of the above? Possible? Or 100 SM's for any one sport?

Another question how deos the rigging affect or how should it lay in relationship to different Sports?

S

[andalusians2]

Could this saddle just be placed too far forward by the owner? The cinch looks too close behind the elbow.

I'm just trying to learn as much as I can before I have a saddle made for my Andalusian.

[AZThunderPony]

Could this saddle just be placed too far forward by the owner? The cinch looks too close behind the elbow.

I'm just trying to learn as much as I can before I have a saddle made for my Andalusian.

quote name='AZThunderPony' date='Jun 4 2007, 04:25 PM' post='5217']

Someone please correct me but isn't David Ganedak making saddles to fit more forward like that to set the rider into the sweet spot? Isnt that the fit he is after? Ity seems to me on another thread that he lays this theory out. Am I wrong?

S

Another thought on difference between Andalusian build and Spanish Mustang build is that the SM becomes more round like a barrel right after the elbow. This leave little space for setting the cinch back. Where as the Andy has more "Girth" space behind the elbow before the ribs extend out. Andalusian2... am I wrong? The common denomnator is that they both have deep well muscled withers where the neck comes down fromthe poll deep into the back as one contiuous line. Both have round well muscled backs. The SM is noarrower than the Andy though.

Just some thoughts

S

[SMUK]

Ok, I am a Newbie here, living in the UK and have some of the few Spanish Mustangs in Europe. I initiallly got around the saddle-fit problem by going treeless. Now my stallion is 5 and I have started doing endurance and putting some serious miles on him. His shape has changed and the treeless has started slipping back too far, due to his musceling up in the shoulders, so my quest for the perfect saddle has started...it is like :deadhorse: (love these smilies!!! ) I went to the expence to buy 3 Steele fit forms, and low and behold 2 of them were a passable fit...

The first was the modified QH bar

The second is the PW tree which is made for a walking horse

I went and had a saddle made on a PW equi-flex tree, but it only came in a 16" (too big for me, I had more than a hands width in front of me and felt I was sitting too far back on my horse). The rigging was 3 way (no other options other than enduru balanced), but 7/8 was the "smallest setting" Jim needs full rigging position to keep the girth in the girth grove, which is pretty much right beneath the end of his shoulder blade. So if I had the girth in the right place, the saddle was too far forward and didn't sit right. The other thing I should have done was to have the seat ground down and the stirrups set back...an expensive mistake...

being in the Uk I unfortuanetly don't have the option to have saddles sent to try out.

Right now I am looking at the GEN II Tucker trail...

would be interested to hear what the experts think of the fit of the fit forms...

many thanks

martine

[Go2Tex]

Martine, the problem with those Steele Equifit forms is that they only apply to Steele trees. Not too many custom saddle makers use them,.... just a wild guess there. Although, I suppose you could ask and see if one would. Then you could have the rigging and ground seat custom made for you.

As for judging the fit in those pictures, I wouldn't even try to make a guess. The best way to judge the fit is to powder your horse's back, then wet the bottom surface of the forms, place the form on the horse's back and pull it back off again. Look at the transfer of powder to the form and check for gaps.

Remember though, cinching will change the fit because it will pull the tree down into the back and, of course, the shape of the back will change when the horse moves, thus causing the problems with slipping, etc. Therefore, placing a form on the back only tells you part of the story.

Here's my suggestion. Take tracings of your horse's back. Send those tracings to a good tree maker and have him tell you what tree to use. Then, have a saddle built on that tree maker's tree. Of course, that saddle might only fit that one horse perfectly, and of course, only at that particular time in it's life and that particular time of year and conditioning.

Moral of the story is, you need only fit the type of horse generally well, for most of the time you use it and for the purpose you use it. When it comes to saddle fit, that really is about the best way to approach it.

Good luck.

[andalusians2]

Someone please correct me but isn't David Ganedak making saddles to fit more forward like that to set the rider into the sweet spot? Isnt that the fit he is after? Ity seems to me on another thread that he lays this theory out. Am I wrong?

S

Another thought on difference between Andalusian build and Spanish Mustang build is that the SM becomes more round like a barrel right after the elbow. This leave little space for setting the cinch back. Where as the Andy has more "Girth" space behind the elbow before the ribs extend out. Andalusian2... am I wrong? The common denomnator is that they both have deep well muscled withers where the neck comes down fromthe poll deep into the back as one contiuous line. Both have round well muscled backs. The SM is noarrower than the Andy though.

Just some thoughts

Hmmmmm. Some new food for thought! My Andy is certainly bigger in size than the SM, but her saddle seems to slide forward into that space just behind the elbow. I always thought that was because the tree doesn't have enough flare. It could well be bridging some even though I can't feel this. This forum has been great in getting me to think before I buy. Wish I could figure out how to post a picture!

Thanks sandy