Needle hitting hook

[Melonie]

I have a cb227r and made some adjustments to the bobbin tension in order to perfect the stitches for the type of leather that I was using. It was working great, but I ended up getting my needle jammed at one point and haven't been able to get it back to normal since. I have a feeling that there are multiple things that are slightly out of alignment thats causing all of this trouble. One problem I am having right now is that when the hook on the bobbin case comes around, it hits the needle. Also when I try to sew, no thread is coming up. Is this a needle bar height issue? If so, how can I know where the needle bar needs to be? 

[brmax]

In looking at the hook and needle contact by way of removing the cover plate and possibly the feed dog. Can you tell if this contact is still in the scarf area of the needle as it should. 

I ask this in the event the needle bar has raised from the clunk. As it may have because the needle hitting the plate or feed dog. 

Good day there

Floyd

[Wizcrafts]

The needle bar position could have been moved up due to impact with the feeder or throat plate. This would retard the timing, possibly beyond picking up the bobbin thread. The hook hitting the needle means that the needle deflector plate has already passed by and is out of the equation. That means that if the hook saddle is positioned to just miss the scarf of the needle with the deflector in play, that the tip of the hook will intersect the needle with the deflector out of play.

Your machine also has a safety clutch that disengages the bobbin drive in the event of a serious binding from thread or a broken needle. If the clutch has popped, the shuttle won't turn at all, or very little, as you rotate the handwheel. If that happened, clear the broken piecs and any thread in the bobbin case, then hold down the push button on the right side of the arm as you turn the wheel one way or the other (with no thread in needle!). The clutch will re-engage at some point of rotation and timing will be restored.

If the clutch has not popped, the culprit would be the needle bar raising from impact. You'll have to remove the top thread and the face plate, then locate the screw or screws on the needle bar clamp that secure it to the bar. Get the correct screwdriver or Allen wrench ready. Remove the bobbin cover and throat plate and take out the bobbin from the basket. Slowly rotate the hand wheel towards you until the needle reaches BDC and raises up about 1/8 inch, then stop. The hook should just be approaching the scarf area above the eye of the needle. The deflector should be touching the needle below the eye, pushing it ever so slightly away from the hook. If these things are not happening together, something has shifted out of time. Troubleshoot as follows.

1. Examine the needle bar inside the head and see if it has one or two thin rings cut into it and visible below the rock frame that it goes through. Those are timing marks. One mark is for the setting the bottom position and the other for the raised position for the hook to work. If there's only one ring, it's probably to time the hook intersection. Loosen and retime the bar as necessary to show both of the rings at the bottom edge of the needle bar frame, in that/those vertical positions.
2. If there are timing rings on the needle bar and you have set the position of the bar to show and hide them at the appropriate points of motion, the following will test the hook's position for correctness.
3. As the needle raises about 1/8 inch (or to its second timing mark), the hook has not yet reached the needle (retarded). You'll have to advance the hook until it is centered above the eye, in the scarf. Consult your manual about moving the hook position.
4. The hook has passed the needle already. Retard the position of the hook.
5. The hook meets the needle above the eye, inside the scarf, but the hook impacts the needle. Bend the deflector plate slightly to the left until it pushes the needle out of contact with the hook.
6. If you don't have timing rings on the needle bar, adjust it up or down as necessary, as follows.
7. The needle's eye and scarf is too far below the hook after raising ~1/8 inch above BDC. Raise the needle bar to get the hook over the eye, inside the scarf.
8. The needle's eye is above the hook. Lower the needle bar to position the eye about 1/8 inch below the hook.
9. After positioning the needle's eye to the hook, check the deflector plate and move it as needed to protect the needle from the tip of the hook.
10. Examine the hook for damage from the broken and impacted needles. If it's chipped or has a burr, it will need to be reshaped and polished, or replaced.

Don't forget to lock down any screws you have loosend. Take advantage of the open face to oil the internal crank arms in the head.

[Melonie]

23 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

The needle bar position could have been moved up due to impact with the feeder or throat plate. This would retard the timing, possibly beyond picking up the bobbin thread. The hook hitting the needle means that the needle deflector plate has already passed by and is out of the equation. That means that if the hook saddle is positioned to just miss the scarf of the needle with the deflector in play, that the tip of the hook will intersect the needle with the deflector out of play.

Your machine also has a safety clutch that disengages the bobbin drive in the event of a serious binding from thread or a broken needle. If the clutch has popped, the shuttle won't turn at all, or very little, as you rotate the handwheel. If that happened, clear the broken piecs and any thread in the bobbin case, then hold down the push button on the right side of the arm as you turn the wheel one way or the other (with no thread in needle!). The clutch will re-engage at some point of rotation and timing will be restored.

If the clutch has not popped, the culprit would be the needle bar raising from impact. You'll have to remove the top thread and the face plate, then locate the screw or screws on the needle bar clamp that secure it to the bar. Get the correct screwdriver or Allen wrench ready. Remove the bobbin cover and throat plate and take out the bobbin from the basket. Slowly rotate the hand wheel towards you until the needle reaches BDC and raises up about 1/8 inch, then stop. The hook should just be approaching the scarf area above the eye of the needle. The deflector should be touching the needle below the eye, pushing it ever so slightly away from the hook. If these things are not happening together, something has shifted out of time. Troubleshoot as follows.

1. Examine the needle bar inside the head and see if it has one or two thin rings cut into it and visible below the rock frame that it goes through. Those are timing marks. One mark is for the setting the bottom position and the other for the raised position for the hook to work. If there's only one ring, it's probably to time the hook intersection. Loosen and retime the bar as necessary to show both of the rings at the bottom edge of the needle bar frame, in that/those vertical positions.
2. If there are timing rings on the needle bar and you have set the position of the bar to show and hide them at the appropriate points of motion, the following will test the hook's position for correctness.
3. As the needle raises about 1/8 inch (or to its second timing mark), the hook has not yet reached the needle (retarded). You'll have to advance the hook until it is centered above the eye, in the scarf. Consult your manual about moving the hook position.
4. The hook has passed the needle already. Retard the position of the hook.
5. The hook meets the needle above the eye, inside the scarf, but the hook impacts the needle. Bend the deflector plate slightly to the left until it pushes the needle out of contact with the hook.
6. If you don't have timing rings on the needle bar, adjust it up or down as necessary, as follows.
7. The needle's eye and scarf is too far below the hook after raising ~1/8 inch above BDC. Raise the needle bar to get the hook over the eye, inside the scarf.
8. The needle's eye is above the hook. Lower the needle bar to position the eye about 1/8 inch below the hook.
9. After positioning the needle's eye to the hook, check the deflector plate and move it as needed to protect the needle from the tip of the hook.
10. Examine the hook for damage from the broken and impacted needles. If it's chipped or has a burr, it will need to be reshaped and polished, or replaced.

Don't forget to lock down any screws you have loosend. Take advantage of the open face to oil the internal crank arms in the head.

Thank you, sir! As always your response is extremely helpful. I ended up taking my machine to someone who knows a lot more about them than I do. I felt like I just kept setting more things off with each solution that I tried. 

He now says the machine is running backwards (although the motor is turning the hand wheel counter clockwise like normal). I can't think of what could cause that. 

On 9/4/2017 at 0:30 PM, brmax said:

In looking at the hook and needle contact by way of removing the cover plate and possibly the feed dog. Can you tell if this contact is still in the scarf area of the needle as it should. 

I ask this in the event the needle bar has raised from the clunk. As it may have because the needle hitting the plate or feed dog. 

Good day there

Floyd

It must be the needle bar then. The hook is hitting the bottom of the needle rather than the scarf

[brmax]

It may be an ideal time to give Bob or his son Bobby a call at Toledo Sewing. One of the Cowboy dealers and familiar here on the site. 

Floyd

Edited September 5, 2017 by brmax

[Melonie]

1 hour ago, brmax said:

It may be an ideal time to give Bob or his son Bobby a call at Toledo Sewing. One of the Cowboy dealers and familiar here on the site. 

Floyd

Where could I find their contact information?

[brmax]

Good afternoon!

Here is a link, and if your using your cell phone, dealer advertisements are who knows where ( in humor )

On the old laptop here they show up on top screen if you have them turned on. 

http://www.tolindsewmach.com/cb227r.html

[Wizcrafts]

8 hours ago, Melonie said:

Where could I find their contact information?

From the home page of Toledo Industrial Sewing Machines:

Bob Kovar Sr. - Owner
Call us toll free, at: 866-362-7397

If you can't reach him on the phone, there is a contact form here.