Thoughts on fiberglass trees.

[Severe]

I do believe there is a place for fiberglass in the tree industry, just not in working saddles.

By working saddles I meen one going on colts or where someone will dally a rope on the horn.

The best test I've ever watched of a tree was a movie crew. They strapped a camera on a brand new fiberglass bronc tree and stuck it on a horse first. It survived that ok but got a good ding in the stripping chute. We glassed that ding back up and it got a trip on a bull next. The bull swelled up with air on the first jump and broke the fork and cantle and the fiberglass strainer down the middle.

We pulled a old rawhide tree outta the attic, a old Hamley assn. that had been used a bunch but someone had brought it in with the leather removed. This was a tree covered in steerhide not bullhide. Dan Luft told me he never used bullhide at Hamleys.

Long story short. The rig made 4 more trips on a bull that I watched and the movie crew took it with them. We never got a requst for another old tree so I assum it did the job.

I'm all for progress, and beleive someone will come up with a new mousetrap someday.

I just think, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I'll leave the new mousetrap to the younger generation, I'm to old to learn new tricks:^)

[AdamTill]

Yonatan,

West System epoxy is pretty good stuff. I use it as an occasional filler and also to glue my tree parts together but I don't use it exclusively because of the cost and the high viscosity. The reason I mention viscosity is because I've come full circle in my application method and have settled on the vacuum infusion process which requires a very low viscosity resin system. Pre-preg materials are great, but to do it right it takes much more than I'm willing to invest.

Jon

Hi Jon,

You can thin West if that would be helpful...I think I've used xylene in the past, or even pure alcohol in a pinch (just don't use a plastic mixing container...tends to melt <sigh>).

When you say vacuum infusion, do you mean that you're adding/drawing the resin under vaccum, or using a vacuum bagging system to hold the cloth against the tree?

Cheers,

Adam

[jonwatsabaugh]

Adam,

Thanks for the tip on thinning the resin! I was wondering, would this would effect the cure rates and final strength of the epoxy?

The typical vacuum infusion process is what I'm using by drawing resin into the bagging mold after sufficient vacuum has been achieved.

Jon

[jennifer]

I have spent the better part of this evening reading the various posts on strength of trees, and the use of various synthetic products in the production of trees.

I have a couple of comments:

First, if we had a history of good rawhide covered wood trees breaking I would say that investigation into the weaknesses would be warranted, but from what I have seen, this does not seem to be a problem. I'm not sure that there is any better test than the thousands of saddles that have lasted 30+ years. The twin towers were engineered to withstand the stress of a plane crashing into them, they were not built to withstand the heat of the fires that ensued after the crash.

Second, I agree that synthetic materials are often cheaper and more efficient to produce but what are the long term costs. What are the effects of production on the health of the planet? Does it preserve or reduce ecosystem integrity? What are its effects on the land? What are its effects on wildlife? How much and what kind of waste does it generate?

Then again the trees we build from wood today are not as strong as those built 100 years ago. Our forests are less dense and the increased light creates faster growth and less dense wood, so we may need to look to synthetics to strengthen the wood that our insatiable needs have weakened.

Although I am a data analyst and IT tech, I come from an Amish community and often question if are we advancing or retarding society through technology. I can say that most of my amish friends have homes and 10+ acres of land by the time they are 20, the wives stay home with their children and the community takes care of each other. Then again I couldn't be communicating with you if I didn't have electricity and my computer.

I think I'll stick to the rawhide wrapped wood tree, but take my plastic bottle of water along on the trail.

Jennifer

[D.A. Kabatoff]

Jennifer,

interesting comments on how the production of synthetic materials affects the environment and is there an actual reason to produce trees made from these materials.

I don't agree with your statement about wood trees not being as strong today as they used to. I won't comment on the use of factory made wood trees because I don't use them... If you are talking about handmade trees, the way they are built today is every bit as good as they used to be and in many cases better. The trees I use are stronger and lighter than many of the old trees because the wood working methods have improved with the use of laminations of different woods in the forks and use of different woods for the bars and cantles which provide a great combination of strength, flexibility, and light weight. A good portion of a tree's strength comes from the rawhide and as long as treemaker's pick decent hides, the strength and integrity of the tree will always be top notch.

Darc

[jennifer]

Glad to know you read my comments.

You are probably correct that using modern techniques we have improved the strengh of saddle trees, but the wood itself is not as strong as the wood from years ago when we had old trees that had grown in more dense forests.

Jennifer

Jennifer,

interesting comments on how the production of synthetic materials affects the environment and is there an actual reason to produce trees made from these materials.

I don't agree with your statement about wood trees not being as strong today as they used to. I won't comment on the use of factory made wood trees because I don't use them... If you are talking about handmade trees, the way they are built today is every bit as good as they used to be and in many cases better. The trees I use are stronger and lighter than many of the old trees because the wood working methods have improved with the use of laminations of different woods in the forks and use of different woods for the bars and cantles which provide a great combination of strength, flexibility, and light weight. A good portion of a tree's strength comes from the rawhide and as long as treemaker's pick decent hides, the strength and integrity of the tree will always be top notch.

Darc

[Severe]

Good coment Darc & Jennifer

I cut my own tree wood and still find plenty of old growth, but you do have to know what to look for. I use Douglas Fir for it's weight to strenght ratio, also it holds screws and nail better than most other woods used in trees. Sitka spruce has a slightly better weight to strenght ratio but I've never tried it with the screws or nails.

I look for growth rings that are very close. This does two things, the wood is lighter and it has less spine. This means it will give more before it breaks, in a tree that means more strenght and flex. If you combine that with rawhide off of a older bull you have the best of materials to build a very refined tree that will flex a bit but still have the final strenght it needs to last under the torture test a working cowboy will put it thru.

I'm not against folks using the fiberglass, I just think it would not hold up over the long haul for my customers. Just a opinion, not trying to step on anyone's toes. RS

[AdamTill]

Adam,

Thanks for the tip on thinning the resin! I was wondering, would this would effect the cure rates and final strength of the epoxy?

The typical vacuum infusion process is what I'm using by drawing resin into the bagging mold after sufficient vacuum has been achieved.

Jon

Hi Jon,

It does affect final strength, yes, so it would be prudent to do some tests beforehand. Then again, so does curing at anything other then the manufacturer's ideal temp and about 1000 other things...

Cheers,

Adam

[3arrows]

Lots of interesting posts here on this subject. My son owns a customer auto-body shop that builds these new import "Tuners" and "Drift Cars" as they call them. They build a lot of kevlar and carbon fiber parts and let me tell you they are beyond belief as to how strong they are and can still be flexible. Id love to experiment with building a tree out of Carbon fiber and Kevlar or at least laminate the carbon fiber onto a wooden tree as an inner core. The carbon fiber would allow some flex, without the possibility of breaking. It is stronger than steel and with the right resins, will "Not" break.

Ive got access to the shop ( I loaned him the money to start it up, so I guess technically i own it). Any suggestions as to how carbon fiber would work? I have an old wooden tree out of a Bona Allen saddle that I tore apart, I might so some experimenting. What do you think?? thanks ron

Edited May 19, 2008 by 3arrows

[AdamTill]

Lots of interesting posts here on this subject. My son owns a customer auto-body shop that builds these new import "Tuners" and "Drift Cars" as they call them. They build a lot of kevlar and carbon fiber parts and let me tell you they are beyond belief as to how strong they are and can still be flexible. Id love to experiment with building a tree out of Carbon fiber and Kevlar or at least laminate the carbon fiber onto a wooden tree as an inner core. The carbon fiber would allow some flex, without the possibility of breaking. It is stronger than steel and with the right resins, will "Not" break.

Ive got access to the shop ( I loaned him the money to start it up, so I guess technically i own it). Any suggestions as to how carbon fiber would work? I have an old wooden tree out of a Bona Allen saddle that I tore apart, I might so some experimenting. What do you think?? thanks ron

Hi Ron,

Actually, carbon fibre is stiff as all heck, and will shatter if flexed to any great degree...that's why it's perfect for aircraft spars, car parts etc etc. If you want something to be relatively flexible or impact resistant, then kevlar is the way to go.

The huge difference in properties between carbon and kelvar is why those hybrid-woven cloths make no sense to me...the carbon will fracture long before any load is taken up by the kevlar. Pretty though.

Vaccum bagging is probably the best way to apply cloth to an existing part, though it would be tricky to get the bag to conform to a built tree I'd think. I'm in the process of making a set of molds for a tree, which is how I'll do things, but can't really start until I get my shop setup after moving (another month or so).

Cheers,

Adam