Do you dye the flesh side of veg tan?

[Tangent Creations]

Here's a question for y'all... Do you dye the flesh side of veg tan? We get alot of 'guff' about our products being unfinished because the flesh side is not dyed. The people who purchase our products are usually thrilled with the outcome of a custom piece, but when we post the pic to show our work we get flamed up one side and down the other for what some people (not the customer) consider to be an 'unfinished' piece. That is never the case. We finish each piece as it needs to be finished. We then explain why we don't dye the back. Maybe it's just the boards that we post on, or too many people that just feel better about themselves if they flame everyone else?

What does everyone here do to finish the flesh side of their work? I'm at a loss. :

[whinewine]

Here's a question for y'all... Do you dye the flesh side of veg tan? We get alot of 'guff' about our products being unfinished because the flesh side is not dyed. The people who purchase our products are usually thrilled with the outcome of a custom piece, but when we post the pic to show our work we get flamed up one side and down the other for what some people (not the customer) consider to be an 'unfinished' piece. That is never the case. We finish each piece as it needs to be finished. We then explain why we don't dye the back. Maybe it's just the boards that we post on, or too many people that just feel better about themselves if they flame everyone else?

What does everyone here do to finish the flesh side of their work? I'm at a loss. :

If it will show, I'll dye it & seal it as well as possible (such as the underside of a purse strap). The insides of purses I will also dye. It just makes for a much more finished-looking product, IMHO.

The backs of belts, no. (Sweat & natural body oils will take care of that).

Black is a whole different issue. I try never to use black if at all possible (because of the crocking issue-although the eco black has much less crocking... however, because it's water-based, it presents an entirely different set of problems...)

[wolvenstien]

First off.... if you are going to boards and posting and getting flamed.... screw em....

It is totally up to you as the artist. It is your creation and you do it as you see fit.... The customers who buy your products and pay your bills do not complain.... you are doing it right....

I am like whinewine, it depends on the item I am making.... some items get dyed and finished as I am making it, others get done once it is put together.... a picture gets nothing on the backside.... a knife sheath gets nothing inside it, or in the belt loop.... but a box, or whatever would... just depends on the item and the application.... Attached is a pic of a box I made to hold a set of dominos I made last Christmas for a friend... I dyed and oiled it inside and out.... now when i do a collar for a pet, i do not do the inside, but if it is for a human... I do... just depends...

[Tangent Creations]

What is 'crocking"? that is new to me...

Also, if you dye the inside of a human collar (and I get requests to dye the inside of belts as well) what do you use to keep it from bleeding? Or am I doing something wrong. But I agree, I HATE using black. Nothing I do keeps it from bleeding, no matter what finish I use.

Thanks for your help!!!

[abn]

T.C.,

I don't dye the insides of belts or wristbands -- I just leave 'em natural and like that look. However, here are a few threads in which this was discussed, as well as some options for sealing in the color if you do decide to dye the insides of your projects.

http://www.leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=707

http://www.leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=282

I hope this information helps! -Alex

p.s. Wolvenstien has a point -- If you're satisfied with the end product and so is the customer, why bother?

[Art]

Hi,

Crocking is just the dye coming off and transfering to whatever it touches. I do use a lot of black and I get sides drum dyed from the tanner (HO). I also have them gum the backs (also called moss back) which helps although you can do this yourself with gum tragacanth. When I line with calf or kip I do not color it, just leave it natural, it will age with use however, I do the edges if needed with water based acrylic (carefully) which holds-up ok; but would rather not if possible. Some tanneries strike deep with their dyes and some are shallow. If I have good strike through, I can just slick the edges, which I prefer.

Art

What is 'crocking"? that is new to me...

Also, if you dye the inside of a human collar (and I get requests to dye the inside of belts as well) what do you use to keep it from bleeding? Or am I doing something wrong. But I agree, I HATE using black. Nothing I do keeps it from bleeding, no matter what finish I use.

Thanks for your help!!!

[Tangent Creations]

Those two links were awesome for info!

Thanks again!

And as far as customers go, we do about everything we can to make them happy and in 3 years got our first complaint about belts not being dyed all the way around. We explained why this is and told them we'd dye the backs if they send them back to us, or we'll send them dye, but we won't be held responsible if their clothes turn red...

[whinewine]

What is 'crocking"? that is new to me...

Also, if you dye the inside of a human collar (and I get requests to dye the inside of belts as well) what do you use to keep it from bleeding? Or am I doing something wrong. But I agree, I HATE using black. Nothing I do keeps it from bleeding, no matter what finish I use.

Thanks for your help!!!

'Crocking' is simply rub-off. There is so much pigment in black dyes that one has to keep buffing (and buffing...and buffing...and...) just to remove enough so that it still looks black but doesn't rub off terribly much anymore & can be (somewhat, anyway) sealed. It's better to use drum-dyed black, for the most part, rather than try to dye it yourself.

[Johanna]

When they judge at shows, they do look for a finished interior, but it does not need to be colored. They do expect that the flesh side is smooth. With vegetable tanned leather, sometimes water and a good burnish, or rub with canvas or deerskin is sufficient. If an item is going to be worn, I prefer to use Leather Balm or some kind of wax for the burnish, because my skin is very sensitive, and it will break out in hives when I sweat on the raw leather. If I were entering an item in competition, I would wax it just for show, for a customer, it would depend on how well the leather took the standard water rub.

Johanna

[Guest]

Geat topic and some interesting responses.

I'm reminded of an episode of a new series on TLC. It is called Hard Shine and is about apprentices working at the SoCal Speed Shop..... They make high dollar hot rods. One of the young apprentices was assigned the job of fabricating a bracket to hold electrical "stuff" under the dash board. The kid welded up a great bracket, ground and polished the welds and put a terrific brushed finish on the metal..... Five hours later he showed it to his boss and the guy hit the ceiling! 5 Hours on a bracket that will never be seen again? We charge this guy (the customer) $125 an hour.... you just made him a $625 bracket that no one will ever know exists.

Everything has an expected level of finish....and you need to know from the start of the project what level you are going use for each thing you make. I put a lot of time into the backs of my motorcycle seats; because they can be seen when on the motorcycle. Even if they can't be seen, the seat pivots up for battery access and THEN you CAN see the backs.....but do I dye and burnish the flesh sides? No, never.

Binders, belts and holsters....I put a lining in them and finish them as carefully as the fronts...but that is my preference for a level of finish.

Dave Theobald

[Tangent Creations]

In the market we sell our belts in we are undercutting Tandy and offering a good product for the price. I feel that we may lose some business by backing our belts, because it will cause the price to rise. Or should I just offer different finish levels? Then people can still afford our product and can't groan if they don't buy the 'higher level' belt.... As it is we sell unfinished "kits' for pretty cheap.

[Trevor]

In the market we sell our belts in we are undercutting Tandy and offering a good product for the price. I feel that we may lose some business by backing our belts, because it will cause the price to rise. Or should I just offer different finish levels? Then people can still afford our product and can't groan if they don't buy the 'higher level' belt.... As it is we sell unfinished "kits' for pretty cheap.

[Trevor]

Hi there. I have been doing black leather belts and pouches etc for many years now for security guards and police etc and dont use oil based dyes unless absoluteley nessesary. I have found that the oils never dry and will run if they come into contact with body sweat or other liquids.

I came across a leather technician frome the UK and he operates a leather re-dying company here and sells chemicals some of which I have been using for many years.

These are Water based dyes and sealers which chemically lock together and never run. I usually completely dip my finished leather items into a mix of dye and sealer (sounds crazy I know) then wipe off the excess then allow to dry for a little while then rub on the sealer. This then will dry to a very nice shine and never come off. fantastic.

He also told me to use a concentrated dye to do edges which also has its own sealer to lock in the dye.

He sells clear antique paste for the waxy finish etc and this also is very good.

If anyones interesed I will try and find out what the name of this stuff is. You guys might be able to get it over there somewhere.

In answer to your question about dying the back side. I always usually do something to the back whether its just a clear coat of sealer or a full coating of dye. This is somewhat different to using fully Dye-through leather. That is where the tanned finished colour of the skin is right through the complete thickness of the leather. I realise that when carving one has to use russet or natural veg. Anything other than carving ie hand tooling I would use factory dyed leather.

Cheers

Trevor

Way down under. NZ

[wolvenstien]

Yeah.... Allowing the customer a choice is always a good thing as long as you dont over do it and allow it to become a burden.....

I sell everything I make that is production with the option of it being plain without carving, only a color and finish.... or carved and more intricate... for a higher price.... You will not loose the customers for the lower priced items, and you may gain a few more or convert a few of the lower paying customers with the higher priced goods...

[pepin1948]

I don't generally dye the backs of belts/wristbands/etc because of what others have mentioned about "bleeding" dyes. Sometimes, if I'm staining/dyeing the front, and it leaks over onto the back (for whatever reason, usually carelessness on my part), then I will do the back to and seal it best as I can.

But I do prefer the backs to be "clean" (uncolored)

As an aside, when I stain my wood boxes, which I top with leather, I rarely stain the interior. That way, if the customer wants it lined, or doesn't want to risk getting stain on their jewelry/whatever, there's no risk.

[Patrice]

Hi would like to know if it's possible to put masking tape on the back on my leather stuff?

Even if i'm carefull when dying, a little now and then, the back of my items are stain with dye.

I would like to know

[Tangent Creations]

Masking tape will pull on the leather making it more 'nappy' when you try to remove it... Plus with the absorbancy of leather, it's hard to keep the dye from bleeding under it anyway.

[abn]

Patrice,

I use painter's tape on the backside of the belts and wristbands I do, and it works really well with water-based dyes like Eco-Flo or even Fiebing's EdgeKote. I haven't experienced any problems with the color bleeding under the tape. As T.C. notes, pulling the tape off will make the back side more nappy, but I like that soft feel anyway.

Give it a try and see if it works for you.

Best, -Alex

[Patrice]

Patrice,

I use painter's tape on the backside of the belts and wristbands I do, and it works really well with water-based dyes like Eco-Flo or even Fiebing's EdgeKote. I haven't experienced any problems with the color bleeding under the tape. As T.C. notes, pulling the tape off will make the back side more nappy, but I like that soft feel anyway.

Give it a try and see if it works for you.

Best, -Alex

Thank's!

Can i find painter's tape in every home depot and renovation stores?

[wolvenstien]

yeah, the blue painters tape can be found anywhere they sell painting supplies including Wal-Mart....

[Chitin]

I've been dying the backs of my collars, then coating it with gum trag and burnishing the heck out of it, then sealing heavily with the "sheen" of my choice. It seems to have worked so far: I've done experiments with little pieces of scrap where I put it under running water and then rub it on stuff and it's done okay. Maybe I've just been getting lucky.

For my masks I just leave the flesh side raw. It's nigh impossible to burnish a concave surface.

I use the pro oil dyes, by the way, and I'm gradually making the switch over to the eco-flos.