Silverd Report post Posted February 24, 2019 Hello, I have a client wishing to repair an older Stubbed Saddle. The work will include new billets and replacement of the knee rolls. Currently there is nothing in the rolls, no padding, horse hair or frock and the top leather of both pockets are torn. I plan to drop the front of the saddle to gain access to the billets and will remake and sew in new pocket top leather as needed. What is the preferred and proper padding material to use? Thank you in advance, Silverd Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Silverd Report post Posted February 24, 2019 Original knee roll freashly opened....that's how old! Anybody want to take a stab at what kind of padding I should consider using for the repair? Sikverd Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BOB BRENNER Report post Posted February 25, 2019 There are many choices when it comes to the foam for the insert. Would suggest an open cell or closed cell neoprene foam in the thickness required, with 1/4" to ½" common. I use 3/8" closed cell. Closed cell holds up a little better than open cell, but has a harder feel. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
valafar Report post Posted February 25, 2019 You would use an open cell foam with a medium density you can get something close at ir specialty number ul 35 the foam has to be supportive but also be able to displace the air a lot of saddles will have vent holes under to allow the foam to sink as the knee is applied . You have to be careful working on older saddles it can be a can of worms and it probably doesn't fit the horse properly anyway. I can give you some help if you like my info is on my website Greg Allan Saddlery Or my facebook GB Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcuk Report post Posted February 25, 2019 (edited) I know its the other side of the pond but this may help you if not take a look at the other foams and neoprene on their site. I am sure you will be able to get the same foams closer to you but this will give you a idea what you are looking for send contact them see what they would recommend. Also making an exact pair out of the foam is tricky in itself at times, if you buy the pre-moulded ones, it will be easier to make them fit. http://abbeyengland.com/Store/CategoryID/407/List/0/Level/a/ProductID/68930 http://abbeyengland.com/Store/List/0/CategoryID/398/Level/a Hope this helps JCUK Edited February 25, 2019 by jcuk Link didn't work Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcuk Report post Posted February 25, 2019 Also this may help. Hope this helps JCUK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Silverd Report post Posted February 27, 2019 Hi Thank you for the great input. Went to Abbey of England as they should know what they are doing. Customer service very prompt and helpful. This is what they recommended. Plastazote Foam 45KG / cubic Meter density. This converts to about 2.8lb / cubic ft. I ordered a 40" X 40" sheet of 3/4" from Amazon...$130.00 or so. A bit more expensive than I'd like to pay but I'll have it and can tell skeptical customers that it is Abbey England recommended. "Can of Worms" Indeed. I purchased an inexpensive Argentinian Saddle that also requires knee roll re-stuffing. The leather on this saddle is in pretty good condition so I don't plan to replace the pad covers but I'm using it as a practice mule in preparation for repairing my real client's Subben saddle that does need pads re-stuffed and recovered. I've cut the pop stitches on the Argentinian Saddle at the saddle front to allow me access to the Billets and knee pads which I stuffed with some foam scrap material that I had already, then re-stitched the pads back together and back onto the flaps using a 441 clone. I made a simple sling suspend the saddle from the ceiling at the correct height and orientation for the machine. Things went relatively well considering its a first attempt! The point of all of this effort is for me to offer knee pad and billet replacement without having to pull the saddles completely apart or hand stitch the pads back onto the flaps. From what I have seen locally this is a common repair but is normally quoted at a rate that often exceeds the value of an older saddle if it can be done at all. The other comment I read in the string above is with respect to the underside padding and how it changes shape over time to the point where they no longer fit the horse correctly. I don't have any saddle fitting experience; obviously something I'll need to get training on if I want to one day address an important part of English Saddle repair and or making. But I have been working with a Rancher who teaches, judges and who has been in the Equestrian industry for a very long time...Was a Jockey at Santa Anita track etc. She has many student saddles, some of which are in incredibly poor condition she uses regularly. These saddles not only have knee pads that are torn out or missing but the underside pads on some are cracked and open. My initial thinking was they are worthless junk, but she maintains they still fit the target horse and are acceptable as is...So where in lies the truth? Do the pads really require re flocking at some point or is this procedure that is largely an unnecessary practice for horse owns who are very fussy? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcuk Report post Posted March 3, 2019 (edited) Sorry for the late reply been pretty busy not sure if you have done the work if so how did it go? I have worked in the horse racing Industry for many years and racing people compared to other equine disciplines tend to have lower care of their tack - In the UK anyway. But the work does need doing the panels need flocking, and if they are split and cracked the leather will need replacing too (replace the whole panel). This is an expensive procedure which is why they are reluctant to have the work done. But the main consideration is safety to the rider and comfort of the horse/pony. Why do you think there is a need for saddle fitters if one size fits all? Or any old saddle will do. It's like anything in life maintenance is the key. Hope this helps Jcuk Edited March 3, 2019 by jcuk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Silverd Report post Posted March 5, 2019 (edited) Hi Jcuk Appreciate your candor. In the tack room at this ranch hang hundreds of examples of tack in a range of condition. The saddles however are the best example of neglect and in your words, questionable safety and certainly questionable creature comfort I suspect. I'm not ready to take on panel replacement with my limited experience at this point and she's not willing to pay for a qualified saddler for the reasons you state. It's dissapointing to me to witness a pro level owner, manager display such a high level of disrespect for the tools of her trade and to the students of this community not to mention the animals. I'm waiting for a shipment from Abbey England that should include the big head pommel nails. I need to replace one on the Argentina saddle, then pop stitch it all back. ...Then I'll take on the Stubbed repair. One thing at a time. Photo of the Argentine saddle and the repaired knee insert sewn back on the flap using my 441 (clone). Silverd Edited March 5, 2019 by Silverd Photo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcuk Report post Posted March 5, 2019 Hi there Did you manage to hit the previous stitch marks on the saddle flap using your machine? if so well done! I ask because the owner of the Stubben may expect this i did a similar repair a while back, yes it was an older Stubben too so to use the same stitch marks i just did it by hand. On the other subject riding schools live on their good safety reputation, poorly maintained tack i hate to say, is an accident waiting to happen. When i finished my training (you never really do something new crops up and you learn something new every now and then) i always say to myself if i would not ride on it i wouldn't send it out even if it means turning work down some tack is past the repairing safely stage you just have to say no because then it is your reputation on the line. Hope this helps JCUK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fivewayswelshcobs Report post Posted March 5, 2019 The picture of the saddle hanging up gave me best laugh I've had for weeks. It shows what can be done when challenged. Personally I have done many by hand without dropping the panel and a number where you have to take the flap off as there is no access but have never tried saddle suspension! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Britmastersaddler Report post Posted March 5, 2019 When I install new knee pads to saddles I use half inch latex Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Silverd Report post Posted March 6, 2019 Hitting the previous needle holes when making repairs: 100% is the goal. For repair work I'm currently use a Claes 30 patcher and a 441 (Clone) both with speed reducers and Bob Kovar motors and controllers or I hand stitch. I tossed out the motor and controller that came with the 441 (Clone from TECHSEW as the system did not function correctly and was largely unsupported by their customer service folks). Do I sound like a difficult customer?...I likely am because I know what is possible when it comes to motor control systems being that I have worked in the CNC machine tool industry for 20+ years. That said I'm new to the leather community and to the Equestrian world. The reason I mention this is because hitting the old holes requires a tremendous amount of machine control, good lighting and for me vision aids as you likely know. If one cannot machine sew and hit all of the existing needle holes then hand stitch the work. in my opinion. 1/2" Latex: I bought 3/4" Plastazote Foam 45KG / cubic Meter density but I can see where 1/2" may serve as well. I think as long as the foam density is correct the type of foam may not be completely important aside from it being of a closed cell type so it does not absorb water. The Stubben customer belongs to a local ranch that I desire to have good word of mouth reporting of my services so I went with Abbey England's recommendation. Is the Latex foam you use an economical alternative to the Plastazote? Lastly: Turning Work Away: Indeed. I agree completely with this notion. One must work within our skill set / equipment & knowledge abilities as opposed to our financial plans. Silverd Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Silverd Report post Posted March 6, 2019 I align the needle holes using small brads that are removed as the machine stitching commences. I also grind the point off the needle I'm using so it is more likely to find the existing hole instead of making a fresh one. Lastly I wear prescription spectacles designed for me to view the action at 10 inches distance. Every stitch is carefully placed and depending on the spacing may require lifting the presser foot and adjusting the work location under the needle. Key is being able to control the machine speed down to a creep when needed. Silverd Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Silverd Report post Posted March 7, 2019 On 3/5/2019 at 12:30 PM, fivewayswelshcobs said: The picture of the saddle hanging up gave me best laugh I've had for weeks. It shows what can be done when challenged. Personally I have done many by hand without dropping the panel and a number where you have to take the flap off as there is no access but have never tried saddle suspension! May I ask what you typically charge for this work? Silverd Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Silverd Report post Posted March 14, 2019 On 2/24/2019 at 6:28 PM, valafar said: You would use an open cell foam with a medium density you can get something close at ir specialty number ul 35 the foam has to be supportive but also be able to displace the air a lot of saddles will have vent holes under to allow the foam to sink as the knee is applied . You have to be careful working on older saddles it can be a can of worms and it probably doesn't fit the horse properly anyway. I can give you some help if you like my info is on my website Greg Allan Saddlery Or my facebook GB I paid a visit to the HITS horse show in Thermal CA this past weekend. Spend the better part of 2hours talking with the show saddler and tack maker Brad who travels with the HITS and other major shows around the country 45 weeks a year in a self contained trailer that includes his leather shop. He repairs tack and saddles for the show contestants and was reasonably busy from what I could tell. He had just finished replacing a seat in one saddle which to my eyes looked as good as new. He also makes and sells a complete line of English tack. Most impressive was his shop which contained only minimal tools and equipment as well as limited space. My shop is much better equipped for what good that does for me! Brad has been working in the English horse world for 35years and scoffed at my idea of making knee roll and billet repairs by only partially dismantling the saddle. His method is to disassemble the saddles completely thereby allowing the rolls to be worked on the bench including machine sewing the pockets closed and to gain complete access to the Billets. He also suggested that he will typically find other issues with the saddle that he can address. I came back from the visit having a better understanding of the business and the challenge someone like me will face making new equipment for sale. Without a very through understanding of horsemanship and or traditional tack making methods, I don't really stand a chance. Saddle fitting included. Brad indicated that the saddle reassembly process goes quickly once understood. I visited your site and was very impressed by the images of your work. Very nice products and very professional presentation. My work pales in comparison. Silverd Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nicholette Report post Posted October 5, 2020 On 2/24/2019 at 4:42 PM, Silverd said: Original knee roll freashly opened....that's how old! Anybody want to take a stab at what kind of padding I should consider using for the repair? Sikverd How do u Sew it back together because I’m scared to cut mine open and sew it back together Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
