Rebadged Singer

[Bellflory]

Hi all, I have another question about the Singer class 17 I'm working on. I saw that it was rebadged while I was cleaning it. The current badge is a 17-23, but I found an old badge in the drawer that read 17-21. My questions are: why would someone rebadge this machine and what might I look for that would be different between the two? It seems like a lot of effort to remove the old badge and install a new one, so someone felt it necessary. Your help is greatly appreciated!

[chrisash]

You can check what one you have here

http://ismacs.net/singer_sewing_machine_company/model-list/classes-1-99.html

[Matt S]

5 hours ago, Bellflory said:

Hi all, I have another question about the Singer class 17 I'm working on. I saw that it was rebadged while I was cleaning it. The current badge is a 17-23, but I found an old badge in the drawer that read 17-21. My questions are: why would someone rebadge this machine and what might I look for that would be different between the two? It seems like a lot of effort to remove the old badge and install a new one, so someone felt it necessary. Your help is greatly appreciated!

17-21 was a two-needle machine, very different to the 17-23. Many different parts, possibly including the main castings. For all intents it would have been impossible to swap a machine between the two designs. Probably just an old thingamebob that gravitated towards the drawer from another machine. Drawers have a magnetic pull on "stuff".

[Constabulary]

Post some pictures so we probably can ID your machine. Could well be that the badge is from a different machine . Maybe one of the former owners (not necessarily the last owner) had different Class 17 machines in use...

6 hours ago, Matt S said:

Drawers have a magnetic pull on "stuff".

So true!    I´m always surprised what I find in my own drawers. 

[Bellflory]

3 hours ago, Constabulary said:

Post some pictures so we probably can ID your machine. Could well be that the badge is from a different machine . Maybe one of the former owners (not necessarily the last owner) had different Class 17 machines in use...

So true!    I´m always surprised what I find in my own drawers. 

 

[Bellflory]

Not sure if you can see it, but a badge has been removed & rivets sanded off. This is the machine where I found it. It cleaned up like a new dime! All is there & tight except for a needle bracket & bobbins. I have to get needles & time it THEN work on the table & mount a servo. I paid $75 and the servo will cost a couple hundred. I'm happy!

[Matt S]

That's an absolute steal at $75. Very handy machines. Good clones (legitimate descendants rather than illegitimate bas... offspring...) of them are made to this day by Seiko, which tells you something -- especially when you look at how old-fashioned the design is. Do you have a year from the serial number?

I'm not convinced about the re-building/re-classing of your machine. It certainly occurred in the past. However for such a drastic change there's a lot of work involved which I would expect to have been more expensive than just buying another single-needle 17. Also Singer would have replaced the class plate in the same position rather than moved it (this has been detected by some collectors/users, sometimes with the original plate flipped and re-marked). What you're probably seeing is the ghost of an old asset or property tag from a previous owner.

Anyway, speculation aside you have a great machine. Wipe it down, oil it, time it (just a needle bar height adjustment IIRC) then run it. Then run it some more.

[Bellflory]

54 minutes ago, Matt S said:

That's an absolute steal at $75. Very handy machines. Good clones (legitimate descendants rather than illegitimate bas... offspring...) of them are made to this day by Seiko, which tells you something -- especially when you look at how old-fashioned the design is. Do you have a year from the serial number?

I'm not convinced about the re-building/re-classing of your machine. It certainly occurred in the past. However for such a drastic change there's a lot of work involved which I would expect to have been more expensive than just buying another single-needle 17. Also Singer would have replaced the class plate in the same position rather than moved it (this has been detected by some collectors/users, sometimes with the original plate flipped and re-marked). What you're probably seeing is the ghost of an old asset or property tag from a previous owner.

Anyway, speculation aside you have a great machine. Wipe it down, oil it, time it (just a needle bar height adjustment IIRC) then run it. Then run it some more.

Thanks for the info Matt. I also bought a Singer 168W101 at the same time. It looks to be complete except for a broken timing belt. The belt is there, so I think I'll try measuring it to find one. SP has one, but it's $100 and that seems a tad expensive.  I'm almost done with the 17, then on to the 168. I also have an old Consew 18 that my mom started business with when I was a kid (a LONG time ago).  How would I date these machines?

[Wizcrafts]

49 minutes ago, Bellflory said:

Thanks for the info Matt. I also bought a Singer 168W101 at the same time. It looks to be complete except for a broken timing belt.

I bought a 168w101 from Toledo Industrial Sewing Machines. Why don't you call them and ask how much they would charge for a timing belt for it? The number is: 866-362-7397

[Matt S]

I can't find a copy of the 168W parts manual online, but the user manual shows changing the timing belt. I think it's something I would pay a professional to do.

1 hour ago, Bellflory said:

How would I date these machines?

For Singer-produced machines (which both of your machines are, rather than Singer-badged Seikos or Adlers) take the serial number and look it up here: http://ismacs.net/singer_sewing_machine_company/serial-numbers/singer-sewing-machine-serial-number-database.html

[Bellflory]

2 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

I bought a 168w101 from Toledo Industrial Sewing Machines. Why don't you call them and ask how much they would charge for a timing belt for it? The number is: 866-362-7397

Thanks Wiz, I will do that.

[Bellflory]

2 hours ago, Matt S said:

I can't find a copy of the 168W parts manual online, but the user manual shows changing the timing belt. I think it's something I would pay a professional to do.

For Singer-produced machines (which both of your machines are, rather than Singer-badged Seikos or Adlers) take the serial number and look it up here: http://ismacs.net/singer_sewing_machine_company/serial-numbers/singer-sewing-machine-serial-number-database.html

I have a parts manual, it's pretty thorough. If I can get the wheel off, I think I can get it changed.  The trick will be getting that bad dad loose.  Might be worth it to invest in a wheel puller. It's pretty dirty so I pretty much have to go all the way through it anyway.

[Gymnast]

1 hour ago, Bellflory said:

Might be worth it to invest in a wheel puller

Perhaps you can lent one from your local auto repair shop, or they may help you. A puller is a standard Tool for them.

[Evo160K]

9 hours ago, Bellflory said:

I have a parts manual, it's pretty thorough. If I can get the wheel off, I think I can get it changed.  The trick will be getting that bad dad loose.  Might be worth it to invest in a wheel puller. It's pretty dirty so I pretty much have to go all the way through it anyway.

Bellflory,

My nerves wouldn't handle a puller, so I called in a SM mechanic who made it look simple: first he took out the grub screws and poured penetrating oil or something into the holes and around the shaft.  Next, and this is the trick part, he jammed a square wooden stick into the top front of the machine, so the wheel couldn't be turned over.  Then he twisted the wheel back and forth while pulling on it... didn't take any time at all and it was off.  

Edited September 30, 2019 by Evo160K

[Bellflory]

21 hours ago, Gymnast said:

Perhaps you can lent one from your local auto repair shop, or they may help you. A puller is a standard Tool for them.

Great idea!

[Bellflory]

On 9/29/2019 at 11:10 AM, Matt S said:

I can't find a copy of the 168W parts manual online, but the user manual shows changing the timing belt. I think it's something I would pay a professional to do.

For Singer-produced machines (which both of your machines are, rather than Singer-badged Seikos or Adlers) take the serial number and look it up here: http://ismacs.net/singer_sewing_machine_company/serial-numbers/singer-sewing-machine-serial-number-database.html

well Matt I got the timing belt on & timed. It wasn't too bad after I got the wheel off. This machine is DIRTY, but so far it's cleaning up nicely. Now on to the front and the post, tensioner and finishing timing.

[Bellflory]

On 9/29/2019 at 11:10 AM, Matt S said:

I can't find a copy of the 168W parts manual online, but the user manual shows changing the timing belt. I think it's something I would pay a professional to do.

For Singer-produced machines (which both of your machines are, rather than Singer-badged Seikos or Adlers) take the serial number and look it up here: http://ismacs.net/singer_sewing_machine_company/serial-numbers/singer-sewing-machine-serial-number-database.html

 

On 9/29/2019 at 10:56 AM, Wizcrafts said:

I bought a 168w101 from Toledo Industrial Sewing Machines. Why don't you call them and ask how much they would charge for a timing belt for it? The number is: 866-362-7397

Hey All, I got the 168W disassembled, cleaned and reassembled. It makes a beautiful stitch. My question, I installed a Reliable 6000sm brushless servo and it seems to power the machine pretty well, but I have to hand turn the wheel to get it started. I used to have to do that with my old Consew 18, but it had a loose clutch motor.  When I hand-start it with the balance wheel, it sews  3 layers of 5oz leather beautifully.  Do you think the servo is underpowered for this beast of a machine, or would that be usual for a machine this heavy?  It's just the servo, no speed reducer or synchronizer. Without the motor attached it turns but takes a bit of effort, not as easy as the smaller 18 or singer 17-23.  Thanks for all your help!

[Wizcrafts]

8 hours ago, Bellflory said:

My question, I installed a Reliable 6000sm brushless servo and it seems to power the machine pretty well, but I have to hand turn the wheel to get it started. I used to have to do that with my old Consew 18, but it had a loose clutch motor.  When I hand-start it with the balance wheel, it sews  3 layers of 5oz leather beautifully.  Do you think the servo is underpowered for this beast of a machine, or would that be usual for a machine this heavy?  It's just the servo, no speed reducer or synchronizer.

I had to add a speed reducer to my Singer 168 that has a servo motor to get it to turn over and penetrate leather when the speed limiter dial was turned way down low, just above the starting position. Otherwise, the knob had to be turned up higher and it was off to the races at startup. With the reducer, it powers the machine at very slow speeds and penetrates anything under the feet without any help from me. Some of these motors have less torque as they begin to spin and the limiter pot is just at the starting position.

The same problem existed on the SewPro 500GR motors I used to use. Its limiter knob had to be turned up about half way to get it to turn the machine over. It seems to be a controller design problem. Maybe the Chinese motor builders need to design (or steal) a different type of signal modulation controller to get more starting torque at very slow speeds. However, that may produce more heat, requiring a metal box instead of the common plastic in common use.

[Bellflory]

5 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

I had to add a speed reducer to my Singer 168 that has a servo motor to get it to turn over and penetrate leather when the speed limiter dial was turned way down low, just above the starting position. Otherwise, the knob had to be turned up higher and it was off to the races at startup. With the reducer, it powers the machine at very slow speeds and penetrates anything under the feet without any help from me. Some of these motors have less torque as they begin to spin and the limiter pot is just at the starting position.

The same problem existed on the SewPro 500GR motors I used to use. Its limiter knob had to be turned up about half way to get it to turn the machine over. It seems to be a controller design problem. Maybe the Chinese motor builders need to design (or steal) a different type of signal modulation controller to get more starting torque at very slow speeds. However, that may produce more heat, requiring a metal box instead of the common plastic in common use.

Thanks Wiz, I'll look into a speed reducer. I'm not much of a fabricator, so I think I'll call Toledo and see if they have something I can use. 

[Wizcrafts]

5 hours ago, Bellflory said:

I'll call Toledo and see if they have something I can use. 

LOL. That's where I get all my motors and reducers.