toxo Report post Posted October 10, 2019 Hi guys. Up until now I've been happy to use flat thread when hand sewing but on a longish run I've noticed it gets a bit scruffy and the individual strands come unstuck and sometimes one strand doesn't pull up as tight as the rest. I've been using John James No2 needles and 1.2 waxed flat thread and it's been a struggle to get those needles through a 1,5mm hole. Before ordering more thread I thought I'd ask you guys if I'm doing something wrong. What's the concensus regarding thread/needle/hole size amongst you guys when sewing two pieces of veg tan? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toxo Report post Posted October 10, 2019 Come on guys I know this is mainly a machine forum but no-one has anything to say after 78 views? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fredk Report post Posted October 11, 2019 1. That size of needle should go thru that size of hole cleanly **. Are you using a correct leatherworking thread knot on your needle? ** my JJ 2/0 needles are 1.4mm and my JJ 1/0 are 1.04mm. I use both with 1 / 1.2 mm thread in 1mm holes 2. I use pre-waxed flat and round thread. After attaching to the needle I rub beeswax over the first few inches and rub it into the thread with my fingers, a bit like burnishing it in 3. On a long run of sewing, in fact on any length, I keep an eye on the state of the thread. As soon as any part starts to look dry from the wax rubbing off as its pulled through numerous holes I pull the thread over a block of beeswax a few times to restore the waxing. I pay especial attention to the thread around the needle's eye where the wax rubs off quicker. Waxing, waxing, and waxing some more as you go 1 hour ago, toxo said: Come on guys I know this is mainly a machine forum but no-one has anything to say after 78 views? 4. and you need to wait more than a few hours for a response. The members on here are all over the world and very many have businesses to run, lives to run and not on the forum 24/7. I've not been looking thru the forum for about 28 hours. This is a forum for leather working, not machines. If you mean leather sewing machines - no it isn't that either, that is just one small part of the forum Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wizard of tragacanth Report post Posted October 11, 2019 (edited) I don't know if I am really helping here but fraying is an unavoidable part of the process. I have used twisted linen thread more than synthetics and I don't know if this applies to braided thread. Anyway, I find it is best when it is moderately to heavily waxed. This keeps the fibers together better and makes it slide through the leather with less damage. Additionally, it is highly advisable to stretch the thread before sewing. Again, this is for twisted linen. My favored way to do this is to hold the waxed thread, one end in each hand, loop the thread over a door knob, keep firm tension on the thread and "saw" back and forth from one end to the other. Does that make sense? Optionally, you can hold one end and run it through your finger tips of the other hand, squeezing and pulling but this can make a twisted thread, bunch up. I sometimes have to use jeweler's pliers to pull the needle through the leather. nick Edited October 11, 2019 by wizard of tragacanth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zuludog Report post Posted October 11, 2019 (edited) Well firstly, be patient! Although it's based in USA this is an international forum, with members all over the world, in different time zones. We have jobs, families, & other things to do, and believe it or not, I like to sleep sometimes. You only posted your complaint after 8 hours, hardly enough time at all. I'd say that for most queries you need to allow 3 or 4 days to get a decent response. And you would have done better to post your question in the 'Sewing Leather' section You should be able to pass a needle & thread through the holes easily enough with just your fingers for 95% of the time, with just a slight resistance. What you're looking for is that mythical engineering term 'a snug fit', which I have also heard described as 'a satisfying drag'. The exception is when you're back stitching, when you might need to enlarge the hole with a round awl and/or use pliers, in which case wrap the jaws in tape to avoid damaging the needle. Nigel Armitage is an acknowledged expert on leatherwork; have a look at some of his videos and you'll see that he whizzes through his sewing with very little effort If you are struggling to get your needles through a hole there can only be two reasons - 1) The hole is too small; but 1,5mm is reasonable enough 2) The needle & thread are too thick, and I think that is the source of your problem, and not whether you are using flat or round thread - John James needle sizes are a bit confusing. Check that you are using size 002, which is a very common and recommended size for most leatherwork. It could be that you are using size 2/0 which are too big 1,2mm thread is quite thick for most sewing. Think about it; at the fold over of the thread at the eye there is 1,2 + 1,2 + the thickness of the needle, which will make quite a big lump to pull through a 1,5mm hole. Why are you using such a thick thread? Most leatherwork uses thread that is about 0,6mm diameter, or sometimes up to 0,8mm. Nigel Armitage makes belts, pouches, and all sorts of items, and he finds 0,6mm thread to be thick enough. I'll bet you struggle to get 1,2mm thread through the eye of the needle as well I use 18/3 linen thread, which is about 0,6mm dia, and various synthetic thread, again with diameters about 0,55 to 0,65mm Here are some makes and suppliers to try - You can pick up 18/3 linen thread anywhere, but recently I've been using 0,65mm linen thread by Yue Fung, from www.blackmountainsleather.com, and it's excellent www.identityleathercrasft.com stock Ritza/Tiger thread, and 0,6mm waxed nylon thread, which I like, and think is underrated www.blackmountainsleather.com Besides the linen they also stock Yue Fung 0,55mm polyester www.artisanleather.co.uk stock 0,65mm Amy Roke polyester, and I think it's very good. They also have 0,6mm waxed nylon thread www.abbeyengland.com are the UK's main stockist for Ritza/Tiger thread All these synthetic threads will be strong enough for most leatherwork If you are no longer struggling & forcing the thinner thread through the needles and holes you may well find that it doesn't fray or twist as much There is, though, only one way for you to find out if there's any improvement, and what suits you, and that is to try a roll here & there. Abbey sell Ritza in full rolls which are expensive, but Identity sell shorter lengths, or try Amazon & eBay, Don't buy anonymous linen thread off the Net as some of it isn't very good. Go for a decent brand, like Somac, Crawfords, Fil au Chinois, or from a leathercraft supplier Edited October 11, 2019 by zuludog Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wizard of tragacanth Report post Posted October 11, 2019 (edited) Oh yeah... just re-read this thread (haha, there's a joke there) and realized that I did not address your thread thickness. 1.2 mm is just too thick. For me, 0.6 mm is a little thin. I use 0.8 mm Sorry Nigel... I just like a chunkier look on holster. nick Edited October 11, 2019 by wizard of tragacanth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toxo Report post Posted October 12, 2019 (edited) Sorry guys. I meant to reply yesterday but got sidetracked. Firstly consider me suitably chastised and I promise I won't do it again. Fred and Wizard: I'm confused now. I'm using 2.4 leather and I sometimes have to resort to putting the needles through one at a time in a 1.5 hole. Maybe I have wusses for fingers. I hadn't thought of the extra wax. Should make a big difference. Thanks for that. Zulu: I actually emailed JJ some time ago because someone else mentioned the 002 2/0 thing. I was confused as a newbie because everywhere calls em #2 or #2/0 but even on the JJ website the image used is clearly #002. They eventually came back and said they're all the same. To be clear my needles are 1.4mm as mentioned by Fred. As far as the thickness of the thread goes, up until now I've done mostly Dieselpunk.Ro designs which are for the most part predicated on the steampunk movement and sometimes the thickness of the contrasting thread is a feature of the design as are the rivets and fastenings. If you haven't looked at his stuff yet he does some weird stuff that many people seem to like. And no one has said whether flat or round is easier? Edited October 12, 2019 by toxo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fredk Report post Posted October 12, 2019 Flat or round? round or flat? Personal preference really. I have plenty of round thread, and I have plenty of flat thread. I like both. I've not found that either one is any 'easier' to sew. I've mainly switched to pre-waxed flat polyester thread as my spools of round waxed thread are running out and I can't get more of them. I do like the way the flat thread seems to lay flatter and neater when pulled up snug in a stitch Thickness of thread should suit the project. I have no hesitation in using 1 or 1.2mm thread on a Plague Doctor's Mask but I'd not use that on a credit card wallet, for that I'll use 0.65 or 0.55mm thread Just get a few different sizes of thread and needle to suit and get used to those combinations and how they look on your work. I buy my flat threads out of China from ebay sellers. The cost is really cheap and the threads are ok. What are you using to make your sewing holes? are you sure its making clean through and through holes? I use these a lot: On thin-ish leather they cut through but on thicker, eg 3mm and above, they don't make through and through and I need to use a sewing awl to finish the hole otherwise the needle either won't go through at all or it struggles 24 minutes ago, toxo said: . . . I'm using 2.4 leather and I sometimes have to resort to putting the needles through one at a time in a 1.5 hole. Maybe I have wusses for fingers. . . . well. thats how I do it, one needle through, then the other passed though and both threads pulled up snug at the same time ~ if its in my stitching clam, if its not I pull one side up snug then the other. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toxo Report post Posted October 12, 2019 6 minutes ago, fredk said: Flat or round? round or flat? Personal preference really. I have plenty of round thread, and I have plenty of flat thread. I like both. I've not found that either one is any 'easier' to sew. I've mainly switched to pre-waxed flat polyester thread as my spools of round waxed thread are running out and I can't get more of them. I do like the way the flat thread seems to lay flatter and neater when pulled up snug in a stitch Thickness of thread should suit the project. I have no hesitation in using 1 or 1.2mm thread on a Plague Doctor's Mask but I'd not use that on a credit card wallet, for that I'll use 0.65 or 0.55mm thread Just get a few different sizes of thread and needle to suit and get used to those combinations and how they look on your work. I buy my flat threads out of China from ebay sellers. The cost is really cheap and the threads are ok. What are you using to make your sewing holes? are you sure its making clean through and through holes? I use these a lot: On thin-ish leather they cut through but on thicker, eg 3mm and above, they don't make through and through and I need to use a sewing awl to finish the hole otherwise the needle either won't go through at all or it struggles well. thats how I do it, one needle through, then the other passed though and both threads pulled up snug at the same time ~ if its in my stitching clam, if its not I pull one side up snug then the other. I quite like the flat All I've used so far is the Tandy flat waxed artificial sinew which is reasonably priced. Just didn't like the fraying. Hoping the extra waxing will help. I have used the stitching chisels but mostly a hole punch cos as you know that's how Tonys patterns are laid out so you know the're gonna match at the ends. What I do is put the first needle through and then hold the needle and the incoming thread on the other side so I can pull them both up to make the maximum space before putting the second needle through if that makes sense and then snug together. I have something similar to your picture with just one hole on it for awkward places. Very reasonable from JT Batchelors. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zuludog Report post Posted October 12, 2019 AAHHH..... aahhhhh..... So you're not using flat thread, you're using artificial sinew. It would have helped if you'd said that in the first place! Months ago I was chatting to the staff in the Tandy shop in Manchester before it closed. They said they wouldn't recommend artificial sinew for general sewing of leather, as it is too thick and tends to separate and fray into fibres - which just about sums up what you've found So get some proper thread, linen or synthetic, about 0,6 to 0,8mm dia and you should see an improvement; if you want thicker thread, Search for 1mm If you want flat try Ritza/Tiger thread Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toxo Report post Posted October 12, 2019 (edited) 23 minutes ago, zuludog said: AAHHH..... aahhhhh..... So you're not using flat thread, you're using artificial sinew. It would have helped if you'd said that in the first place! Months ago I was chatting to the staff in the Tandy shop in Manchester before it closed. They said they wouldn't recommend artificial sinew for general sewing of leather, as it is too thick and tends to separate and fray into fibres - which just about sums up what you've found So get some proper thread, linen or synthetic, about 0,6 to 0,8mm dia and you should see an improvement; if you want thicker thread, Search for 1mm If you want flat try Ritza/Tiger thread Well that's interesting! I understood "artificial sinew" to be a colour. I bought it as flat waxed polyester which it is. I wonder what makes it different? And I wonder why they sell the stuff at all without making that clear. I should add that I bought it as 1.2 mm. The problems I mentioned in the first post was getting two needles through the hole at the same time as per recommended by Atkinson, Armitage etc.Not because the thread was too thick. I quite like the thread except for the splitting of the strands after a long length of stitching which I'm hoping extra wax will help with. I'm certainly not gonna toss it. I've got one and a half rolls of the stuff. Edited October 12, 2019 by toxo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wizard of tragacanth Report post Posted October 12, 2019 Confession time: I always sew one-needle-at-a-time. I guess that is kinda amateurish and I may be the only one doing it but it works for me and I doubt that I will change. However, I am open to constructive criticism. nick Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toxo Report post Posted October 13, 2019 Well I'm glad I'm not the only one. I think the others are using smaller needles than JJ#2s. Two 1.4 needles going through a 1.5 hole has gotta be atight fit. I'm gonna get me some of those #1s Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wizard of tragacanth Report post Posted October 13, 2019 I use Tandy Harness Needles, Size 0 (zero). Mine measure an average of 1.09 https://www.tandyleather.com/en/product/harness-needles-10-pk nick Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
