Juki 441 clone was missing stitches

[esantoro]

Well. I just finished using 138 thread in a #24 needle. It was a big improvement, though I wonder if the 24 needle leaves too big a hole in the leather.

The shims seem like something I should try with the #23 needle. I also think I should go with the diamond point and not the "S" point. I'll call around tomorrow.

Another question that has been nagging me is the bobbin thread tension. What is a good sign that tells you the bobbin tension is too tight? How easy or difficult should it be to pull thread off the bobbin through the needle hole? I've been thinking that if when you go to remove the bobbin and you pull the bobbin thread out through the tension hole in the reverse direction and the thread frays, then the bobbin tension was too tight.

Thanks again for all the help,

Ed

[Art]

Hi Ed,

Thread tension is too tight when you cannot get enough top tension to pull the lock up into the leather or when you have to use every bit fo the top tension to do so. You should try to run as low a bobbin tension as you can (within reason here) to cut down on wear. If you are damaging thread then yes the tension is too high or something else is wrong. You should be able to pull the bobbin thread from the machine with some resistance. With smaller machines that have removable bobbin cases you can yo-yo test them and it they go all the way to the floor you need more tension, settings for large thread will not work (well then again they might) for small thread. Like everything there is a range that works because you have adjustments to compensate.

I don't think anyone would say you can't use a 23 needle with a 441, and if someone wants to run a 16 with 69 thread it could be setup to do that also. If you can stick a needle in the needlebar then within reason, you should be able to set the machine up to sew. The limit of 207 on the Ferdco 2000 may be a limit as it is set up from Ferdco, and they sell to a market that wants to push the pedal and make it go, not necessarily pull the hook out, most of those machines only get oil (if that). When I was considering a big stitcher 4 or 5 years ago I asked Ferdco to send me a manual which I read, I was negatively impressed by the statement that if the machine needed timing to call them. I like to understand the machines I use and their philosophy and mine diverged at that point, but I am not like most of their users and probably 90% of their users are happy with the hands off stance, I am in the other 10%.

On needles, you may not find sizes 15, 17, or 20 as they are five sizes like 95, 105, and 125 metric, most distributors carry the 10 sizes 100 thru 250 although 100 and 110 might be a little scarce in 794. Also they have a D or Tri point needle available that might work a little better for you than the S.

Art

Well. I just finished using 138 thread in a #24 needle. It was a big improvement, though I wonder if the 24 needle leaves too big a hole in the leather.

The shims seem like something I should try with the #23 needle. I also think I should go with the diamond point and not the "S" point. I'll call around tomorrow.

Another question that has been nagging me is the bobbin thread tension. What is a good sign that tells you the bobbin tension is too tight? How easy or difficult should it be to pull thread off the bobbin through the needle hole? I've been thinking that if when you go to remove the bobbin and you pull the bobbin thread out through the tension hole in the reverse direction and the thread frays, then the bobbin tension was too tight.

Thanks again for all the help,

Ed

[esantoro]

Hi Art,

I also love to know how things work, and certainly appreciate everything you've taught me through this forum.

I called around and found #23 Schmetz D (triangular) points at Artisan. Just for the sake of experimentation, I think I'll also buy a spare retaining ring for the shuttle race and experiment with shimming it a smidgen so that I can easily get my machine to work flawlessly with a #23 needle.

My Baby Bull/Mach 1 sure is a fun little machine. It really does stitch anything I throw at it. I just wish the feed dog didn't chew up the leather so much. I'm looking at getting a roller foot for this little beauty.

Ed

P.S. Does anyone have a preference for diamond point needles over the D-triangular point needles? The nomenclature is a bit confusing.

Hi Ed,

Thread tension is too tight when you cannot get enough top tension to pull the lock up into the leather or when you have to use every bit fo the top tension to do so. You should try to run as low a bobbin tension as you can (within reason here) to cut down on wear. If you are damaging thread then yes the tension is too high or something else is wrong. You should be able to pull the bobbin thread from the machine with some resistance. With smaller machines that have removable bobbin cases you can yo-yo test them and it they go all the way to the floor you need more tension, settings for large thread will not work (well then again they might) for small thread. Like everything there is a range that works because you have adjustments to compensate.

I don't think anyone would say you can't use a 23 needle with a 441, and if someone wants to run a 16 with 69 thread it could be setup to do that also. If you can stick a needle in the needlebar then within reason, you should be able to set the machine up to sew. The limit of 207 on the Ferdco 2000 may be a limit as it is set up from Ferdco, and they sell to a market that wants to push the pedal and make it go, not necessarily pull the hook out, most of those machines only get oil (if that). When I was considering a big stitcher 4 or 5 years ago I asked Ferdco to send me a manual which I read, I was negatively impressed by the statement that if the machine needed timing to call them. I like to understand the machines I use and their philosophy and mine diverged at that point, but I am not like most of their users and probably 90% of their users are happy with the hands off stance, I am in the other 10%.

On needles, you may not find sizes 15, 17, or 20 as they are five sizes like 95, 105, and 125 metric, most distributors carry the 10 sizes 100 thru 250 although 100 and 110 might be a little scarce in 794. Also they have a D or Tri point needle available that might work a little better for you than the S.

Art

Edited August 24, 2007 by esantoro

[Art]

I like the D needles for "in-line" stitches, or the LR (reverse twist) that gives you that "up-hill" stitch like Hermes uses, some say it mimics hand stitching. If you use a stitching groove, I have heard you can just use an R (round) needle. Never tried it.

Art

Hi Art,

I also love to know how things work, and certainly appreciate everything you've taught me through this forum.

I called around and found #23 Schmetz D (triangular) points at Artisan. Just for the sake of experimentation, I think I'll also buy a spare retaining ring for the shuttle race and experiment with shimming it a smidgen so that I can easily get my machine to work flawlessly with a #23 needle.

My Baby Bull/Mach 1 sure is a fun little machine. It really does stitch anything I throw at it. I just wish the feed dog didn't chew up the leather so much. I'm looking at getting a roller foot for this little beauty.

Ed

P.S. Does anyone have a preference for diamond point needles over the D-triangular point needles? The nomenclature is a bit confusing.

[esantoro]

I like the D needles for "in-line" stitches, or the LR (reverse twist) that gives you that "up-hill" stitch like Hermes uses, some say it mimics hand stitching. If you use a stitching groove, I have heard you can just use an R (round) needle. Never tried it.

Art

I'm slowly aspiring for the craftsmanship of Hermes. I don't know how long it would have taken for me to start thinking about experimenting with LR needles. Now I know to give them a look. Even when I bought needles directly from Diamond Needles, they never inquired as to what type of point I needed and just gave me whatever they had.

Thanks so much, again, for the heads up.

Ed

[Artisan Dave]

Hello everyone,

I'm Artisan Dave and, as Art mentioned I work with the fine folks at Artisan.

Our Website www.artisansew.com has a section called Manuals where you can read or download the manuals for our equipment. I suggest the manual for the Toro 3000/Toro 4000 may be of assistance to those of you who have asked Art questions about timing, tensions, needle sizes, etc. Here is a link to the Toro 3000 manual. Even if you do not own an Artisan machine, the concepts covered in the manual will add to your understanding of timing a machine etc. Try it and let me know if it helped you! http://www.artisansew.com/manualsfiles/TOR...TORO%204000.pdf

Edited August 27, 2007 by Artisan Dave