Ordering a tree by the bars

[bruce johnson]

It seems like we are talking a lot about trees lately, but rarely have there been much discussions on trees between groups of saddlemakers and tree makers. I think the recent discussion really emphasizes that there is a lot of good opinion and experience on this issue. I think we all agree that we need to get saddles that are a workable match for our customer, whether they are riding one horse or a barnful. To further define some of the tree discussions, I want to limit this thread to two different scenarios on bars only for the treemakers and play the devil's advocate.

1) I am a saddlemaker, and want to start using your trees, and you want me as a customer. I have used trees from ------ and ------- before. The ones from the first company didn't fit right (customers said), and the second guy's trees did. I have not seen your trees before. How do I tell you what I want as far as bar shapes - angle, spread, twist and rock? I don't want to order your "standard" , wait 4 months, it is not what I was getting from maker #2, and I will now be out 8 months and the cost of this tree to reorder.

2) I am a regular customer of yours. Together we have been doing a good job meeting our customer's needs. Now his wife decides she wants a western saddle to ride her new Peruvian Paso, Spanish mustang, morgan, whatever. We have fit hubby's ranch and rope horses in the past, how do I decide what to change and how to fit the wife's new ride?

[David Genadek]

It seems like we are talking a lot about trees lately, but rarely have there been much discussions on trees between groups of saddlemakers and tree makers. I think the recent discussion really emphasizes that there is a lot of good opinion and experience on this issue. I think we all agree that we need to get saddles that are a workable match for our customer, whether they are riding one horse or a barnful. To further define some of the tree discussions, I want to limit this thread to two different scenarios on bars only for the treemakers and play the devil's advocate.

1) I am a saddlemaker, and want to start using your trees, and you want me as a customer. I have used trees from ------ and ------- before. The ones from the first company didn't fit right (customers said), and the second guy's trees did. I have not seen your trees before. How do I tell you what I want as far as bar shapes - angle, spread, twist and rock? I don't want to order your "standard" , wait 4 months, it is not what I was getting from maker #2, and I will now be out 8 months and the cost of this tree to reorder.

2) I am a regular customer of yours. Together we have been doing a good job meeting our customer's needs. Now his wife decides she wants a western saddle to ride her new Peruvian Paso, Spanish mustang, morgan, whatever. We have fit hubby's ranch and rope horses in the past, how do I decide what to change and how to fit the wife's new ride?

I have what we call a back map for every saddle we build. It is the first step of the ordering process.

If they are fitting a bunch of horses we choose the bar shape that will fit the majority. Most people like a certain conformation so it usually ends up working out pretty well.

David Genadek

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

As we may have said before, “Every tree maker does things differently”. So you can’t expect to order the same numbers from us as from anywhere else and get the same fit. It just doesn’t happen. With that as a base, then you know from the start that you are going to have to spend some time talking with us, just as we know from that start that taking an order from a new customer means a fair amount of time on the phone as Rod talks you though it. To help reduce that time, it is good to know as much as you can about what we do and how we see trees. This is why we originally sent out our information articles and then started our website. It was meant to be a resource for our customers. (The principles there can be applied to other trees, but the specific numbers can’t.) So if you are familiar with the contents of that, at least we have similar terminology and you know, for example, what we mean when we say we measure by hand hole width and not gullet width in case you have never done that before.

So when you first call, whether you have read our stuff or not, we will ask you what type of horses you are trying to fit. This is the hard part – getting what is in your head into our heads. This is where Dennis Lane’s system will be a huge help if people use it. MUCH easier to communicate shape that way than our current descriptive words. If you have something a bit unusual or are concerned about us not being clear on what you are trying to fit, then you can send back drawings to us, done as we describe in our “Fitting the Horse” information article. Also, we may or may not know how the two other makers' trees you have used fit but if we do we often have some idea how similar or not their trees are to ours, so that may help us as well. Next, Rod will explain what the different options are, in all their permutation and combinations, discuss how we like things to fit and give you his opinion on what might work for you this time round. Then there’s discussion until you are comfortable with your order. Unfortunately it does come down to: You don’t know for sure how our trees fit until you have one and although we listen to you and ask for your input and opinions, ultimately you have to trust us to make what will fit that type of horse best. The problem has always been communicating what “that type of horse” is.

Question number two is easier. Once you have a tree or two and have thrown it on a few horses, you will have a pretty good idea how they fit, especially if you have ordered different sizes. Deciding what to change to fit a different shaped horse is much easier when you already have something to start with. The best thing is to take one of our trees you have on hand (since you are a regular customer) and put it on the different shaped horse. It may surprise you by not needing to be much, or any, different than what you have already. If it does, you can look to see what needs to be changed. If you aren’t sure, expect a longer phone call again as we ask specific questions when you order. Pictures work well too, especially now with e-mail. Take pictures of one of our trees (tell us which one) on the horse you need to fit, especially of areas that concern you. We know the shape of that one (we keep piles of specs on every tree we make) so if we can see what you see, we will have a good idea what to change. And as we discuss this with you, you will know too for the next time.

I guess in both cases there are three – no four – steps that need to happen.

1.) Communicate the shape you want us to fit. This is the hard one. You can’t tell us the size and shape you want us to make the tree, because you don’t know what our sizes and shapes are till you get a tree. So you have to tell us about the type of horse you are trying to fit.

2.) We will discuss with you the specs we feel we should use to fit your type of horse and why.

3.) You have to trust that we know how we build trees to fit that shape. There is your “4 month and cost of the tree” question, but that is honestly the way it is. Your customers trust you too.

4.) Give feedback when you get the tree. If it doesn’t fit the way you expect, we want to be the ones to know. Maybe it is because we have different expectations on how a tree should fit. If that is the case, another long phone call can clear up the discrepancy, though hopefully most of that was taken care of in the first long phone call. Maybe it is because we didn’t communicate clearly enough about the shape, so we have to figure that out better. In any case, we will do what we can to help get it right. And if it does work, tell us that too. We really like that kind of phone call.

[jonwatsabaugh]

I'll be weighing in on this soon. My typing is painfully slow. Just haven't had the time to sit down and write it out.

Jon

[jonwatsabaugh]

Well I'm back (probably to the dismay of many!), but here goes.

Granted, I've only built about 175 saddles, and about 100 trees (a hand full of those ending up as firewood) and many of you have got a lot more building experience than I, so for what it's worth here is my statement of faith regarding saddle trees and new customers.

To date I've only built a handful of trees for other makers. The vast majority, has been trees built for the saddles I build. This will change dramatically throughout the next year as I make the transition to building for other makers. Now, what I have done to date has worked pretty well, but I will probably fine tune the process as I move along. For me, as well as the customer, simplicity is key to the initiation of a new working relationship. My primary business to date has been with well bred quarter horses, mules, and an occasional Morgan. Since my sampling has been more with quarter types and mules than all else, I have established a base line to start with (I'm sure you guys hate that term by now!). I prefer to send out a base line tree in the wood for the customer's evaluation. Now keep in mind I do have a number of base line bar designs, ( I don't think I had made this clear till now) so I'll send out the one closest to their description of animal and job for which it will be used. From this we can evaluate what modifications need to be made if any. The beauty of building hand made trees is the ability to make changes to the bars, record them, and faithfully repeat that process the next time around without having 150 patterns hanging on the wall. Way cool, I love this job! Sending out trees in the wood is somewhat risky but I haven't had any problems getting them back to date. Pictures are required in this process so I can make my own evaluation. As an example, last spring I sent a tree to a customer in North Carolina to try on her mule. She sent back a video on DVD, wow was that cool! She did everything I needed. Saw the mule, tree on back, squared up at static, led him off at a walk, bent him hard left then hard right at a walk...told a good story! DVD good, not necessary, but if there is a large distance between you and me, I need good clear pictures from several different angles. As a quick side note I have heard of other tree makers using their standard bar, changing the front angle and bar spread and try to pass this off as a mule tree...ain't gonna work.

From all this, discussion can be had as to final mods, if any, to rock, twist, flair, and convex profile of the front and rear bar pads ( I won't negotiate much on the bar profile). The maker can also tell me about any features they like on the top side of the bars. This also enables them to see the quality of the structure they will be building on. So to sum it up, talk, send tree, get pictures and tree back, talk. All tree info ends up in a data base.

In conclusion, I want to thank Dave and Rod for all the education. Dave, I think I'm beginning to understand your science on this. When I have some time, I'm going to go back and study all your earlier posts and try to clarify in my own mind your studies. Not sure if I agree with you yet, but obviously it works extremely well for the disciplines you build for. I do have convictions about static fit but I'm always listening. I know you cringe at the thought of classifying horses by breed, but for now I just need it as a point of reference. I like the idea of your “back map” and have considered molding my base lines in fiberglass. Both you guys are very eloquent on this subject. Maybe intuition has played to large a part of my process, and I probably should apply more science to my approach, but I've got a lot of saddles in the arena and on the pasture and everything to date is working pretty good . I think more than we realize we end up with similar results.

My literary skills most of the time stink, but I hope I've conveyed somewhat of a light hearted approach to my summation. Again a sincere thanks to the educational process.

Jon

[David Genadek]

Jon,

Any good scientist will tell you intuition is what gets the big break throughs.

You don't need to agree. My reality in all this has changed many times and I hope it continues to do so. I have had a hard time letting go of many things in both the process of understanding saddle fit and learning to make a living in the saddle business. For me it has been an interesting journey. I started at the high end of things and have since explored nearly every nuance of the business. I started thinking saddle making was about carving and leather work I have since learned there is much more to it than that. I look forward to the day when I feel like my trees are where I want them so I can start doing the creative part of saddle making again.

David Genadek

[ArtS]

Ok guys what do you all think about that saddle fitting pad that you heat in the oven then mold to the horses back and sending that to the tree maker?

Would that not be the best thing to do? They would get an actual mold of the horses back.

ArtS

[AndyKnight]

Ok guys what do you all think about that saddle fitting pad that you heat in the oven then mold to the horses back and sending that to the tree maker?

Would that not be the best thing to do? They would get an actual mold of the horses back.

ArtS

I use the equimeasure.com pads alot for long distance dustomers. It is not as good as having the horse in my yard! but they do give me a good idea of what I am looking at. The down side is they are only as accurate as how well the customer gets it molded.

I am constantly tweaking my tree design. .

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Ok guys what do you all think about that saddle fitting pad that you heat in the oven then mold to the horses back and sending that to the tree maker?

Would that not be the best thing to do? They would get an actual mold of the horses back.

We have had a couple of these sent to us and they work fine. The biggest thing is to get one that is long enough for Western saddles. At least one company charges extra for that compared to the ones they sell for English saddles. Also, we had one (not equimeasure but similar idea) sent to us along with the directions which they had followed fully. The directions had you starting the mold ahead of the wither, but it ended about mid-back so gave no information about the back bar pad area.

Other disadvantages are that it only checks one horse at one point in time, so if you have multiple horses, which one will you do or will you purchase a few of them? Then there is the cost of the form and the extra shippping costs to consider. And it isn't a system you can use to compare between horses in any manner. So for a single tree here and there, it works fine. But as it wouldn't work well for categorizing horses or quantifying shapes.

[Hidemechanic]

ArtS, I have made plaster casts of backs for problem horses, mostly. I send them to the tree maker and he does the rest(w/notes,photos, and conversation).

I too Jon, Have thought about fiberglass but I haven't gotten around the issue of time to set(keeping the horse still, and sometimes the heat).

Plaster gets warm and relaxes the horse usually but we are only talking a few minutes before you can gently remove the cast and allow it to cure. Fiberglass on the other hand I would imagine we'd want to use a large plastic drape to protect the horse

Jon maybe you weren't talking about taking a fiberglass back map from the horse.(?)

In any of the ideas I've pondered on this subjet they all seem to involve a lot of labor.

Such as casting off the horse's back then flip it over and make another cast(fiberglass) from the underside of the first cast which would be a more true to shape(static), but definately micro fit(how close does it really have to be). Maybe too extreem unless I want to build a saddle stand more like a horse's back(maybe if I had a body shop in my back yard).

I've never used the equifit type but only heard that they were too short for western and some have tried to add a piece to the rear to compensate but was a pain to do so.

These are just things I have done and thought about just to through into the pot.

And Jon, your communication skills are just fine, as David was saying we sometimes get so focused on a thing that we miss the forest for the trees, that's why we listen to new ideas and try new things. GH

[jonwatsabaugh]

GH brought up that age old question, "How close does it really have to be?" Ah, this is the one we wrestle with, the one we agonize over, the one that sometimes causes us to break out in a cold sweat. There are so many ways to approach this question, and most of the time we over think the issue. Years ago I worked for a company that was trying to implement Statistical Process Control into the whole company system. It was an intense process of data collection for analysis to improve production and hence the bottom line. It never worked for them, though, because of apathy and lack of conviction among the staff. It was a very time consuming and complicated process. I guess I have adopted a stripped down, highly simplified version of this for myself. This system is nothing more than sampling a large group and arriving at a “mean” or what I consider a compromise. This is where I came up with that term “base line”. My data to arrive at base line, however, does not include what I consider junk horses. I wish one size fit all but it doesn't. I think it only reasonable though, to restrict the number of base lines in a system or you loose order and control over it. Will there be times I step way outside the mean? Probably, but I hope its a rare occasion. For example, this past summer I sent a tree in the wood through a third party to the end user who happened to live in Colorado. Third party contacted me and said it didn't look good on two of the three horses it was fit to. I said OK, let me take a look at some good pics. Got tree and pics back...he was right. All three horses were mature in structure, two were very broad with protruding shoulder muscling, and probably were not ridden very hard. My intuition told me this is the condition they probably would remain in. One horse was acceptable with the base line but the other two required much more rock , more flair, and wider bar spacing. What's a guy to do? Right wrong or indifferent, I fit the two larger horses and let it go. The horse closer to base line could carry saddle and rider much better with this saddle than the other two could with a base line tree. All things considered, this was my intuitive response. As time goes on I'm sure there will come an occasion where I will decline the job. These are always tough decisions, but if I think I can be all things to all people I'm only fooling myself.

An area of importance that has only been briefly mentioned is padding. This is a discussion that could be carried to infinity also.

To date I haven't had any experience with the equimeasure system. I can visualize it working fine as long as it was accurately molded and arrived undistorted. I would want to pack this thing really well. U.P.S. isn't very kind to packages sometimes. Still not real interested in fittin' to that unless it's close to my base line, but as you read earlier, I've already broken that rule.

As far as the back map goes, my idea was to make a fiberglass mold from the bottom side of the bars from an assembled tree and make a casting from that to send out. Kinda like what Steele does... I wasn't very clear about that.

Jon

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

how close does it really have to be

Here is something (slightly reworked) that we posted a while back, and the more we talk about it, the more I think this is the philosophy we work from.

Saddle fitting is not rocket science. There are two basic rules:

1.) Don’t get in his way. Make sure that the edges – the front, back, top and bottom of the bar don’t dig in anywhere, and the cantle and fork gullets don’t contact the horse.

2.) Within those margins, keep as much contact with the horse as you can over as much area as possible without breaking rule #1. In other words, shape it the way they are shaped as much as possible.

If you do those two things, you will have a good fit. We are not trying to fit camels, elephants and donkeys here. A horse is built like a horse, with some variations. Problems arise quickly when rule number one is broken. You can have a fair amount of leeway with rule number two and still “get away with it” (ie. not hurt the horse) because of the movement of the horse under the saddle. This is why if you have a tree that is correct in the basics, it will fit a wide range of horses well enough to be used comfortably.

[Romey]

Here is something (slightly reworked) that we posted a while back, and the more we talk about it, the more I think this is the philosophy we work from.

Saddle fitting is not rocket science. There are two basic rules:

1.) Don’t get in his way. Make sure that the edges – the front, back, top and bottom of the bar don’t dig in anywhere, and the cantle and fork gullets don’t contact the horse.

2.) Within those margins, keep as much contact with the horse as you can over as much area as possible without breaking rule #1. In other words, shape it the way they are shaped as much as possible.

If you do those two things, you will have a good fit. We are not trying to fit camels, elephants and donkeys here. A horse is built like a horse, with some variations. Problems arise quickly when rule number one is broken. You can have a fair amount of leeway with rule number two and still “get away with it” (ie. not hurt the horse) because of the movement of the horse under the saddle. This is why if you have a tree that is correct in the basics, it will fit a wide range of horses well enough to be used comfortably.

Thats the most sense I heard on this subject from this forum yet. I think one can get to hung up on tree fit when overall saddle fit, pads, type of work one is going to do, ect is the other equation. Unless a person is exactly fitting a perticular horse, and I really dont know why one would do that, we should be fitting horses in general, all horses as best we can, atleast I have to.

In spring and summer I may have to be on 3 horses a day for long periods of time. unless there is a huge differance I and every hand I know only hauls one saddle ever, My opinion is get me close, Ill get the rest of the way. I will switch saddles on the same horse depending on the country im riding in though if i can or need to.