bucking rolls, swells on a fork and the Aussie knee rolls

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Anyone want to wade into a discussion on the mechanics and differences in how bucking rolls, swells on a fork and the Aussie knee rolls work in helping you stay in the saddle when things get "exciting"? I'd be interested in learning more about the history and development of these as well.

Denise

[greg gomersall]

Anyone want to wade into a discussion on the mechanics and differences in how bucking rolls, swells on a fork and the Aussie knee rolls work in helping you stay in the saddle when things get "exciting"? I'd be interested in learning more about the history and development of these as well.

Denise

Denise John Clark of Portland Or. patented the bucking roll in 1901. When properly attached the bucking roll works more like the aussie knee roll than the swell, your thigh will make contact with the roll much sooner than it would with a swell. At times hands would tie their slicker or a gunny sack just behind the fork of their kahk to make an improvised set of rolls. Currently you can buy oregon style rolls were the roll body is sandwiched between two layers of strap leather or the nevada style where the roll body is rolled over the body of the roll and back under before stiching. Both styles can be built to lace together between 2 rings or dees or with a long tail that goes through the handhole and nails under the gullet along the top edge of the skirts. The original Clark rolls were what we call the nevada stlye and laced together. Greg

[bruce johnson]

Never rode an Aussie, but have seen "The Man from Snowy River" movies several times. Glad it wasn't me going down those hills.

Bucking rolls generally sit a little further back than swells would be on a fork. They are softer (usually stuffed with hair, wool, or fiber of some natural or artificial origin), and bruise you less than swells. More to lean into or a safety valve to keep you from contacting the horn if you are pitched forward. Bucking rolls are also loose enough that you can't get quite the grip you might get with undercut swells. Personally I like the look of most rolls on a slickfork, and think they look "naked" without them.

Undercut swells will let you get a grip under them and kind of "lock-down" into position. Straight sided swells will not give you much grip, and mainly serve to bruise up your thighs and sort of protect you from going over the front. Kind of a fence to bounce you back into the cantle. Most swell forks are good to lean up into to get forward and rope. Usually swell forks are longer than bucking roll seats and give you more room to rattle around. Biggest problem is that most swell fork saddles have limited forward stirrup swing. It is pretty hard to get forward with your feet enough to get a grip under swells on some of them.

There is some debate who did the first swell fork saddle. I have heard Marsden (?) from The Dalles (?), OR credited. The first swells appeared to be like a wooden ball cut in half and screwed onto the fork. Then like everything else, it went to extremes with the Form-Fitter wide swells, deeply undercut and wrapped back over the thighs. Combined with a short seat, and high cantle, made it easier to lockdown and harder to buck off. The high cantles were the back-biters we talked about a while back. Rodeo committees finally got together to standardize the saddles used in bucking horse contests. They came up with the "Association" and Hamley got the first contract as I understand it. The basis of the Association tree originated with the Ellensburg tree. There were standard measurements allowed, and several contractors and rodeo committees used them. In fact, at most of the early rodeos, you rode their saddles, you didn't pack your own.

[greg gomersall]

Bruce most of the credit I've seen for the swell fork development went to Victor Marden as you stated. Hamley's actually developed the association tree for the commitees from Pendleton, Boise, Walla Walla and Cheyenne in the fall of 1919. 20 years ago I bought one of the original Wolf Point Stampede commitee rigs. I restored it and 3 years ago sold it back to the Wolf Point rodeo commitee. There was only 2 or 3 people that were old enough to remember that they had owned 6 hamleys at one point. The Montana Cowboy Hall of Fame is now in Wolf Point so it has a good home.

As for what works better riding rough-string I believe that is a personal choice but one thing I have learned is that what can help keep you in the saddle will also keep you out of the saddle if you get loose. Greg

[bruce johnson]

Greg,

LOL. Yep, what ever keeps you in the saddle will keep you out once you get loose. April, 1989 - Riding a "California stocksaddle" with slight equitation build up - keeps you in place front to back in hard stops - net result - fractured L2 and L3 vertebra when the colt decided to buck instead of turn the cow down the fence. November 1993 - Cutting saddle - This colt told me for 3 laps he was going to buck, I over-and-undered him to see for sure, bad move. Fractured pelvis, subluxated sacroiliac, and after he broke my pelvis on the cantle, sucked back and kept me in the buggy. Sixteen inches of pretty flat seat was a good sized target to slide back into. I wish he had bucked me off, then I wouldn't have had to figure out intentionally how I was going to get off him by myself. Finally grabbed the fence and let him go out from under me. Multiple other sprains, strains, and pulls from other wrecks, but that is the basis for getting old and having good stories.

Just finished restoring my great-grandfather's Duhamel, my son made the 5th generation to ride it. I have a 1928 Hamley to restore next. It is not a contest saddle, but is built on the Association tree with a single EZ dee rigging. It came with the paperwork - copy of the order and estimate form, and the receipt. Every once in a while I will see a contest saddle in a museum, pretty cool. Did yours still have a horn? I'll get some pics of the Duhamel tomorrow and put it over on the restoration section.

[greg gomersall]

Bruce The horn had been sawed off but I replaced it when I restored the saddle. It had a 6 carved in the seat just below the Hamley stamp and Wolf Point Stampede accross the cantle back. Interesting note; every Hamley bronc saddle built before approx.1985 had a horn. they would saw them off before they shipped if the customer requested it be removed, other wise it was shipped with the horn in. I have a set of old Clark Bucking Rolls, they have the patent date stamped right in with the maker stamp. Greg

[barra]

Ok. How the knee or poley pad on an Australian saddle evolved. When the English arrived they brought with them their English type saddles. Now Australia was originally established as a British penal colony. When the convicts finished their sentence most stayed (no return travel ticket). Some led law abiding lives upon release but of course some went back to their wicked ways. In an effort to stay one jump ahead of the law they stitched leather rolls to the flap (fender) of the saddle. This gave them a bit more stability when trying to out run the law chasing them. As the saddle evolved the knee pads went up higher to where the thigh would be. Nowadays some are right up near the pommel however the term knee pad stuck. Most are made by stitching 2 shaped pieces of heavy harness leather to the flap at right angles and then stitching them together. Once this is done the pad is covered in the same leather as would be used to cover the seat (chap weight leather). another way they are made is to stitch the 2 harness leather halves to the flap down flat, then bend the 2 up at right angles and stitch together, leaving a small gap to firmly stuff with wool. When done it too is covered as per first method

4" high is fairly common but some as high as 5" could be used on bronc busting saddles. Some saddles had smaller versions on the back of the flap as well for the back of the thigh for extra lock in value, tho these are not common now.

THe first pic is a Traditional stock saddle with serge lined and wool stuffed panel (padding for the horse). The second pic is a more modern style tree where they are building the knee pads as part of the tree. These would be then covered in leather.

Edited August 29, 2007 by barra

[waddy]

I feel I owe everyone a quick but sincere apology who read my first post in the topic "Why are Wades so popular?". All of my braying about the "superiority" of swell forks was based on lifelong experience with nothing but swell forks. You all have convinced me, I'm going to build myself a Wade with the dreaded bucking rolls, and based on virtually everyones comments, I am afraid I will really like it. I worked with Jesse W. Smith, and his preferred method of installing the rolls was to screw them solidly into both the gullet and at the base of the "swell". What do you folks think?

[greg gomersall]

Waddy that is one method as I previously described. Very effective and stable. Greg