Skiving machine - Fortuna vs. Fratelli Alberti vs. other brands

[Leatherbag]

Hello,
last year I puchased a beautiful Adler 69 and this year, I want to invest in a skiving machine for my small leathergoods brand.

I am reading everything I can find about skiving machines, but I still dont figure out what would be the most important things to look for for me.

Currently I am mainly working with leahter of around 1.0-1.2 mm thickness, but I am planning to sew also thicker leather of around 2mm.

- Do I need a vacuum suction? I am producing only very small quantities, but I read that the suction is not only recommended for preventing dirt but for preventing pieces getting stuck in the knife and disturbing the transport.
- Is a bottom feed machine good, or should I look for a bottom and top feed machine?
- I thought of spending around 500-800 Euro for a used machine, but I am somehow flexible if there are good arguments

There is a seller in my neighborhood who would sell me an old Fortuna for around 600 Euro (he first wanted 900, but then pretty went to 600 pretty fast). It looks pretty good (only saw pictures), I'll have to replace the table and the motor and there is no vacuum suction. I'll contacted Fortuna and they told me that it's "Fortuna LP II", built in 1949, and that the only available parts are the common consumables like knifes, grinding wheels etc.
So I am wondering if this is a good deal or if I should better look for machines where I can replace more parts like the feet etc (but I also read that Fratelli Alberti parts are interchangeable with Fortuna, not sure if this is right).

Also, there is another seller who sells a Fratelli Alberti AV2MA built in 2017, with vacuum suction for around 900 Euro. But its pretty far away, I'll have to decide if it makes sense to drive there. It is "with feed" and "separate roller transport" - what does that mean?

Or should I better buy a new Global where all spare parts are available without any problems?

I am completely overwhelmed, so I would be really pleased if you could help me about picking the right one.

Thank you very much, best wishes from Germany

Edited January 30, 2020 by Leatherbag

[RockyAussie]

Forget the old Fortuna. I always recommend having an aspirator (suction) installed on the machine and particularly if you want to do any of the thinner softer leathers. I have a Fortuna as can be seen in my you tube links along with some mods you may find interesting and as well an FAV AV2 skiver as well. I like the Fortuna slightly better due to it having a little more fine tune adjustment controls but I think for 900 Euro the FAV would be an excellent purchase. Parts for them are in my experience quite good as well. Here is a link I just found on the FAV - http://www.fratellialberti.com/lang2/skiving-machines-av2.html

If you care to have a look into my profile section and over into the "about me" section you can also find some previous posts on the Fortuna in use.

Best Wishes

Brian

 

[Leatherbag]

Hi @RockyAussie

Thank you very much. I am just wondering if the aspirator makes lot of noise? My workshop is a very small 16sqm room in an apartment building and the machine with the big aspirator looks kind of huge :D

Also, the FAV seems to have a clutch motor with 380V (dont see it well on the pictures, will have to ask the seller). I need 220V and I prefer a servo motor. So I'll have to replace this too. But how does the aspirator work? Is it connected to the motor? Or does it have its own motor?! Sorry for asking these stupid questions but I have never worked on a skiving machine before

Edited January 30, 2020 by Leatherbag

[Leatherbag]

Ok I just found this video:

Guess its pretty loud in the rooms itself but it shouldnt disturb my neighbors...

One more question: What does "separate roller transport" mean and is it useful?

 

Edited January 30, 2020 by Leatherbag

[RockyAussie]

The FAV AV2 of mine is single phase 220 volt. The aspirator on it is quieter than my Fortuna but in an apartment building could be annoying for an extended period.

Maybe a lot more pleasant than hip hop though. Skiving operations rarely need to go for any extended time frames keep in mind. A long stint may be 1/2 hour in one go. The Fav has a clutch motor with a very controllable clutch as well. The aspirator goes when the machine is turned on and I don't think is separable. I can find out tomorrow if you like.

[RockyAussie]

10 minutes ago, Leatherbag said:

One more question: What does "separate roller transport" mean and is it useful?

I am not sure what they mean there. They have a feed stone that feeds the material through but that is on all bell skivers. I am guessing they may be refering to the black knob you see at the back right in the video above. When you turn that knob down you can make the speed of transport go a the speed you want it to go at which can be useful when doing long strips on a continuous basis. That is not a feature on the Fortuna but if you kick the heavy foot pedal forward on the floor you can pretty much achieve the same thing. With a servo motor you could set the speed but I am unsure if you could get the same slow crawl that you can with a good clutch set up. Dinners ready so I will check in tomorrow. Here is another video worth a look -

 

[Leatherbag]

Thank you, it would be just perfect if you could find it out, because I would prefer to replace it by a servo motor (mainly because of the noise) and I am not sure if its possible to connect the apirator with the same servo motor as well.

Will check the video now. Thanks again and enjoy your meal!

 

[Leatherbag]

Just got an answer from the FAV seller.

The aspirator has a seperate motor, both motors are 380V, which I dont have in my workshop. He says that changing two motors makes no sense and that I should install a 380V in my workshop. But as its a small rent workshop in an apartment builing, I guess that this is no option...are the new Global or China brands really as bad? I would get a new Global for around 900 Euro with table and servo motor or the China machines for around 600 with table and servo with all spare parts available. But without aspiration. Would you recommend the aspiration due to the dirt reduction or because the dirt could cause problems with the knife?

I really would have to work on a skiving machine and make some tests with my leather first, its so hard for me to imagine and to decide...but there is no dealer in my area..

Edited January 30, 2020 by Leatherbag

[RockyAussie]

In the Campbell Randell  video above at just past 20 minutes in you will see why an aspirator is a very desirable feature. When that waste comes up it often comes up 1/2 way through your work and tears it to pieces. The waste scrap pieces visible at the back of that machine show what you can expect without an aspirator. I There are some silly little scrapers on the non aspirated skivers these days and I have seen on here where they fail and where people I looking for better fixes. It would be wise to spend at the start and not have to try and fix later. As for the FAV AV2 of mine it has 1 motor single phase. The right side when you look under has a belt to drive the skiver and on the left side it has the extraction set up with a tube then running over to the collection box. The motor itself is not a clutch motor just a simple single phase motor. The clutch action happens up at the skiver head and that is the same on the Fortuna as well. You could easily change the motors on either of these machines to a single phase as long as the rpm is the similar. You may have to do a little adapting to a mounting plate but that is pretty easy. Motor cost over here I would guess at $120 au. 

The first bell knife skiver I had was an old Fortuna and had the disadvantage that when you fed the job through slow the bell also went slower and worse it had no aspirator. I wrecked a lot of work on my shoe uppers at the time. I felt guilty selling it to some poor bugga for $200. I should have given it to him with a sympathy card.

I can do a few pictures under the FAV if you really want.

[Leatherbag]

Thank you very much for your answer, I understand more and more why it makes sense to have an aspirator.

But I am pretty confused about the motors. So you machine has only ONE motor, that it connected to the machine and to the aspirator?

Because the seller just told me that there are TWO motors, one for the machine and one for the aspirator, but only ONE cable (with a 380V plug). He said that on the machine's motor, he can read that it can be  changed to 220V but he is not sure if the aspirator motor is compatible with 220V too. I have no idea from motors (just changed the clutch motor of my Adler with a servo motor, that was very easy), but I have no idea what kind of motor is build in the aspirator and what options I have in order to use it with 220V....

I guess this skiving machine is a pretty good deal, but it only makes sense if I can make it work with 220V. Any ideas what to check?!

[RockyAussie]

I have had a look into the FAV AV2 range and found that they do have a model that has 2 motors on it. That model has a super suction on it. If you look at the bottom pictures on the second page in this pdf file you can see the one with the single motor and the double motors version.  http://www.fratellialberti.com/lang2/files/Depliant--AV1-AV2.pdf

I doubt there would be much issue in getting the aspirator to go with a single phase set up but you could probably get an answer by contacting the makers.

Here below are a couple of pictures I took today of mine with the single motor set up

From the back showing the drive pulley to the left and the vacuum extractor to the right.

Close up on the motor

Hope that helps some

Brian

 

 

[Leatherbag]

Hello,

last year came Corona and other priorities, so I now continue with my skiving machine search.

After I have now looked for over a year throughout Germany for used Fortuna / Fratelli Alberti and always found only ancient, half rusted devices, I had finally decided to buy a new China machine (Global SK111) from a very nice and competent dealer. Just before I was about to buy it, I learned that these machines are now available in a new version: Instead of one servo motor with V-belt, there are now two DC servo motors installed directly on the machine head, so that knife and feed can be controlled separately (I'll attach a pdf with all information about that machine but I would buy it without aspiratior because it would be too loud for my neighbours and I dont have enough space for it.). This machine costs about 600 euros more than the basic version with one motor.
However, my dealer says he finds the result nicer with the 1-motor machine. He says that if the knife rotates so fast, the skived area would look like polished/burned. He recommends me the 1-motor machine with a good servo motor that you can adjust slowly and to keep the knife very sharp. His youtube videos using this 1-motor machine with slow servo motor look great (he sharpens very slowly around the curves), but I'm reading all over this and other forums that it's a nicer result to have the knife running at top speed. The dealer is over 300km away and currently he only has another China brand in stock which I don't want.
Does anyone have experience with these 2 motor machines? Do you think it's worth the extra cost or should I better take the basic version (in an emergency I could add a second motor myself, but then of course that's the less elegant solution).
I'm still not 100% convinced by the china machines, but the dealer is rebuilding a few things to make them safer and better and I would get a detailed briefing from him. I think that I have no other choice, because there seems to be no better alternatives in the whole of Germany.

Any help would be really appreciated, I am still pretty overwhelmed.

Greetings from Germany

SW-801E-ENG-ESP.pdf

Edited March 21, 2021 by Leatherbag

[Leatherbag]

22 hours ago, Leatherbag said:

...there are now two DC servo motors installed directly on the machine headhttps://leatherworker.net/forum/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=176931

Ooops, I did not mean DC servo motors but DIRECT DRIVE Servo motors...:)

[Pats83]

I am also thinking about getting a skiving machine later this year. What was your final decision?

 

Thanks a lot.