tippmann boss - sewing thinner materials question

[sombercrow]

Hello,

I've had the machine for a while, but am trying something new and am having some issues, was hoping to get some suggestions from some more experienced boss users out there.

While I'm likely to hand stitch, I do have a fair amount of experience using the machine for thicker leather combinations, but lately have been wanting to work on some other stuff. In particular a backpack that is part canvas part leather. The manual / official description of the machine does say it can sew canvas, and while it technically can I guess, I'm having some issues.

For starters I bought some size Z99 thread + size 130 needles from the tippmann website, which it states are sized for each other (way smaller than I'm used to though). However, when I sew with them, the machine skips maybe three out of eight stitches, and it's a pain. I took (almost) the whole thing a part and confirmed the machine wasn't damaged and everything seemed fine. Eventually I gave up with that and swapped to a thicker thread and needle. Yet no matter what I did with the tension for both knobs on top, as well as the bobbin casing, the stitches always come out too loose (as in, there is a near straight line of thread, or notches of thread, running along the underside). I can post pictures if anyone wants. I should also note it was the same visual result for both needle sizes.

I'm stitching 4 layers of canvas, which is about the same as ~3oz leather in this case, maybe a bit less.

 

So I guess my question ultimately is this. Is there something I'm overlooking? Could it be a needle or thread size thing? Or does the machine just not really work with thicknesses under 4 or 5 oz total? In the demo videos though I saw some stuff that seemed thinner than what I have. I'd appreciate any advice, thank you if you read all this.

[sombercrow]

I have an update. I was sort of able to fix the tension problem. However I was hoping it was paired with the initial problem I'm having with the stitch skipping, but apparently it's not. So to rephrase my question, does anyone have experience working with smaller needles + thread on this machine, and if they've had this issue / know what the potential cause could be. If I make 20 stitches, somewhere between 5 and 15 will actually stitch. And when one doesn't stitch, I usually need to crank the handle 5+ times before the bobbin catches it again. It's hard to get more data than that because somewhere in that range (sometimes even after 1-2 stitches), I get this other problem. What keeps happening is that the thread keeps coming off the second tension knob , and spooling around the post that it's supported on. Even at max tension it still happens sometimes. Once more I don't know if those are related or not. Any advice is appreciated, but I will keep at it.

[Evo160K]

"What keeps happening is that the thread keeps coming off the second tension knob , and spooling around the post that it's supported on."  Are you able to post a picture of this?

 The machine will definitely sew thinner material when set up correctly.   First thing I would do is check the owner's manual to see that the needle hook timing is spot on.  I supported a mirror on a board with three screws, so I could see the needle and loop action without standing on my head.  

This help number for Tippmann may be useful:   Need Help? 866-286-8046

 

Here are some miscellaneous thoughts on the Boss  (no particular order)

• Always make firm and complete strokes up and down with the hand lever.  Jerky movements or stopping then starting (particularly when about to enter or when in the material) may cause issues such as missed loops/stitches or double loops.
• Most importantly, if the machine locks, binds or the hand lever doesn’t want to move up or down for any reason, just stop immediately, no force.  Any other action will most likely do damage.  Think it through.  If the material is locked in place, just cut the threads, clean out the clippings, look for the cause (thread path issue i.e.) and then continue.
• Double looping is usually caused by the primary tension being too loose.  This machine seems sensitive to tension settings, in my opinion.
• See the separate sheet on adjusting the primary tension wheel and the secondary tension’s affect on it.
• The primary tension is named that for a reason.  It’s usually adjusted twice what the secondary tension is adjusted. i.e. if the primary, knurled, round nut is turned one-half turn, the secondary is turned one-quarter turn.  You’ll develop a feel for it.  Feel how the top and bottom threads feel now for reference.
• Before threading the needle, cut the end of the thread on the same bias as the twist of the thread.  That’ll leave a small, sharp point on the thread.
• To get extra top thread, pull it from the needle side of the “F” Guide Post, or hold the hand crank back and pull from the Needle Foot.
• Lubrication is critical; follow the instructions in the Owner’s Manual.
• Put a drop of oil in the groove (in the body casting) that the shuttle rides in anytime the groove seems dry to the touch.  Makes a huge difference.
• Use a clear, quality, sewing machine oil like SEW-RITE Precision Machine Oil from Tacony.
• Check the needle tip for burrs often and check the thread path frequently, particularly before a critical sew until you’re comfortable with the machine.
• Keep the shuttle area meticulously clean, the tension wheel and the tension discs as well.
• Adjust the stitch length in increments.  I believe it’s best done with the needle out of the material… not sure, didn’t experiment with it.
• Use your mirror stand and a mirror to see how each stitch is forming, at least until you’re comfortable using the machine.  It will give you a heads-up if a problem is developing or a stitch is going bad.  (i.e. hook missed the loop, hook picked up a double loop).  It’s an excellent tool.  If the hook misses the loop, you can often put the needle back into the missed hole and carefully continue.  Haven’t had a missed stitch or double loop since the timing was fine-tuned.
• Machine timing first and thread tension second are critical factors in getting a good stitch.   Feel how the top and bottom threads feel now for reference.
• Refer to your needle-thread chart(s) when changing thread size.  As we learned, mismatched needle and thread combinations can cause big issues.
• When turning a corner, the owner’s manual recommends moving the hand lever fully to the top, lifting the foot and then turning the material.  With the timing as good as it is right now, it wouldn’t surprise me if the material can be turned with the needle in the material… once you see the hook has caught the loop.  I didn’t try it.
• When you replace or change a pressure foot, put the screw in to first resistance, then set a firm piece of leather under the foot, loosen the screw, and then tighten the screw.  This insures the foot is flat and feeds as best it can.

 

 

 

Edited May 29, 2020 by Evo160K

[sombercrow]

I appreciate all the thoughts. Most of these things are conclusions I have come to over the years of owning this. Although one thing you said gave me an idea, which I'll get into in a moment.

Did more testing, here's where I'm at. To reiterate, I am using Z99 thread, and a 130 size needle (which are matched on the thread guide). Issue #1 is that I am getting a lot of skipped stitches. I am becoming more convinced that this is partially related to just really needing to dial in the tension, which I'm struggling with doing accurately due to the next issue. But I cannot confirm. Normally I keep my bobbin at what I imagine is about 1 pound of pressure, and with this thin thread I am playing around with about 3-4 pounds I'd guess. I should also note that I have some 160 needles and it seems to skip stitches less when I use them, but they are technically not the right size..

 

But yes the main issue is that the thread keeps jumping off the second tension knob and wrapping around the post. This seems to happen randomly regardless of a stitch being skipped, or any sort of tension setting (which I have tried some extremes of). I've attached an image as you suggested. But you mentioned something above that makes me wonder, maybe it might have to do with the thin thread not turning the knob right in some way, and hence it needs additional lubrication? I don't know. Because on the other hand I feel like it would only slip out if it was too loose. Yet it seems to happen even when I crank the tension up enough that's blatantly showing in my stitches. So I don't know. While naturally I appreciate any ideas, but I think I will also take your suggestion and call tippmann directly on monday, assuming they are still open due to the current state of the world. Thanks again

 

edit: I feel a need to confirm that I do not have any of these issues with thicker thread and everything works fine

 

 

Edited May 30, 2020 by sombercrow

[Bert51]

Looking at your picture, I would try putting the thread so it goes around the the first post, that way it will give it a little bit of tension, as it goes through the two holes.

Bert.

Edited May 30, 2020 by Bert51

[Evo160K]

Sombercrow,

Yes, the picture does show that problem well... I've never seen that happen on any machine with a wheel.

https://documentcloud.adobe.com/link/track?uri=urn%3Aaaid%3Ascds%3AUS%3A4d780bd4-5e1f-4e55-941e-f19153d604c2#pageNum=4

 

That's the current owners manual shown on the Tippmann website.  Check the section "Threading the machine".  As many times as I've looked at the manual I've been using, I never noticed the thread went counterclockwise once around back side of Secondary Tensioner Wheel (D), I've only been sliding it into the discs... that accounts for some difficulties I've had.    Regarding  the "E" tension wheel, It looks like you know the thread goes once clockwise fully around as that's the way it appears in your picture.

Regarding needle/thread sizes, thread that's too small for a given needle will have more difficulty forming a good loop than the correct size thread.  Further into the manual you'll find a needle and thread guide.

[Bert51]

Thanks @Evo160K  that shows what I meant.

A lot of manufactures over many years have used this tension system. Singer and Adler have used it since the early days.

It is basically a pulley that needs to be turned to create your tension, thus you need tension before and after the pulley to maintain your tension or it will give you mixed results on your stitching.

Hopefully by threading the thread around the post it will give you the tension needed to stop stiff thread falling off the pulley.

Bert.

[sombercrow]

Yeah I've got the manual and all that and have been staring at it looking for some sort of solution. And yes I am feeding it the proper counterclockwise, then clockwise manner, as the image in the manual (linked above) shows. Might be a bit hard to tell in the image I posted. I tried it again earlier by wrapping it twice around the left / primary tension wheel, and did 100 or so stitches and it never jumped off. That doesn't exactly explain why it's happening, but a fix is a fix right? I still feel like I'm skipping more stitches than normal, but it's possible that the tension settings for the knobs + bobbin require a lot more precision than they do with thicker thread / needles and I just need to keep dialing it in. Haven't had a ton of sewing time but I will soon enough.

Once more, thanks for the advice

[Bert51]

When you thread the post, you need to go through the first hole, pull the thread around to the side of the post you put the thread  through the first hole so the thread goes around the post.

Not like you have in the photo, but like this picture.

Bert.

Edited May 31, 2020 by Bert51

[sombercrow]

Oh I see what you mean. Sorry on that manual there are two things called the post and I wasn't sure what you meant. I do feel like on the manual image it just goes in one hole and out the other, it even says to do it like that. I will try it though tomorrow or when I next get a chance.

[Bert51]

This is a picture I borrowed from the internet, but you can see the tension is showing in thread between the two hole post and the three hole thread tensioner and the thread before the two hole thread post.

Bert.

 

Edited May 31, 2020 by Bert51