Landis 1 test

[jacob1965]

Pick up a Landis 1 (Lock Stitch Wax Thread Machine) this weekend at a good price.  Came with stand and accessories. But no foot peddles or links for foot peddles.  

Here is a test I did with a piece of 8-9 oz leather using 277 nylon bound thread and a new #200 Schmetz needle. The front looks good to me but the back I'm not sure about is the Landis a saddle stitch style machine?  Or do I need to adjust something? Have a manual but don't have any examples of stitching. 

FYI I know nothing about leather working. Hope to use the Landis to make knife and ax sheaths.

[CowboyBob]

It looks pretty good but I would tighten the top tension just alittle.And be sure to holdon the needle thread when you start sewing.

[jacob1965]

Bob, Thank you, will try your suggestions. 

[RemingtonSteel]

13 hours ago, jacob1965 said:

 is the Landis a saddle stitch style machine?

Jacob, I think you may have answered your own question within your question.

13 hours ago, jacob1965 said:

Pick up a Landis 1 (Lock Stitch Wax Thread Machine)

I am certainly no expert, but let me try to add a little more clarification. 

In Saddle Stitching the top and bottom threads alternate with every stitch hole and Saddle Stitching is done by hand. On hole one you start with two equal lengths of thread with one end coming out the top and the other coming out the bottom. On the first actual stitch, both the top and bottom needles pass through hole two and the threads are cinched tight, with the top thread becoming the bottom thread and the bottom thread becoming the top thread... rinse and repeat through the whole stitching process. If you were to use two different color threads, say red and blue tied together, and you started with the knot in hole one, if you looked form the top you would see a red stitch followed by a blue, followed by a red, followed by a blue, etc. looking at the bottom of the leather you would see just the opposite, blue followed by red, followed by blue, followed by a red... you get the idea.

With lock stitching the top thread always remains the top thread, and the bottom thread always remains the bottom thread, and is almost always done on a machine. The machine passes the needle through the leather carrying the top thread, and on the upstroke of the needle a loop in the top thread is formed. The shuttle which holds the bobbin, essentially pass the lower thread through the loop made by the top thread. The two threads (top and bottom) are now looped around each other forming the stitch. As the needle continues to rise, if the tension on both the top and bottom threads is set correctly, the stitch is pulled up into the center of the leather essentially locking the stitch in place, hence Lock Stitch. This is why Bob suggested tightening up the tension on your machine.  If you have a red thread as the top thread of your lock stitch machine, and a blue thread in the bobbin as your lower thread, all of your top stitching will be red and all of your bottom stitching will be blue.

If I may make an additional suggestion to follow up Bob's, adjust you machines tension when sewing two pieces of 7-9 oz. leather.  Most of your sheaths will have a minimum of two layers (top and bottom pieces), and if you put in a welt, which is highly recommended, that is three to four layers. Ideally you want your stitch pulled halfway up into the project. But because many do not like to keep readjusting the tension every time they change the number of layers of a project, if you are pulling into the center of two layers, that tension should work for a project with three to four layers as well. The stitch will not be in the center, but it will be far enough in to lock the stitch and keep it hidden.

That is a great find you made.  Nothing like working on a craft as a hobby with a piece of that crafts history. Be patient, and you will get it dialed in.. Enjoy.  

Edited March 31, 2021 by RemingtonSteel

[jacob1965]

RemingtonSteel Thank you for the explanation of the two different stitches. I will have to get two different color threads just to see how they are coming together. 

Thanks, Jacob 

[RemingtonSteel]

On 3/30/2021 at 6:56 AM, jacob1965 said:

The front looks good to me but the back I'm not sure about is the Landis a saddle stitch style machine?

Jacob, first you are welcome for the explanation of the two stitch types. However, after rereading your original post, I think I understand your question better, so correct me if I am wrong.  On the top, the stitches are straight and inline with each other (what you expected to see.)  On the back the stitches are angled and look exactly like English style saddle stitching (not what you expected to see... expecting to see straight stitching like on top), which gives you the impression that the Landis is a saddle stitch machine even though you purchased what you thought was a lock stitch machine. If that is what you are thinking, you are correct, it does look like saddle stitching, even though it is not.  This has more to do with the point style of the needle, than the machine being used. You mentioned that the needle is a #200 Schmetz, but you don't tell us what point type it is. My guess from looking at the picture of the back side stitching is that you are using a LL point needle.  Different needle point types can create different looking stitches on the front and/or back of the project, as seen in the two samples below.  Shown is the back side of both samples where the top sample uses a LR point needle, and the bottom uses a LL point needle.

If you are looking to have straight stitches on both the front and the back of the project, you would want one of the following leather point style needles: S (Spear), Di (Diamond), D (Triangular), or R (Round). The point style you choose has as much to do with appearance as it does the strength of the stitch. As an example A spear point needle, if used on short stitch lengths, although creating straight stitches on front and back, can create a weak seam as there will be very little leather if any between stitch holes. Because the point of the LL needle is angled, you can sew these short stitch length and your project will be stronger as the holes will not connect with each other.

Here is Schmetz's page on leather needle points.

I hope this helps a little more with understanding the nuances of machine sewing.

Edited April 2, 2021 by RemingtonSteel

[RemingtonSteel]

Oh, and here is a handy Schmetz guide to Cutting points/Needles for stitching leather that can be downloaded if the above link ever dies:  leather-needles.pdf

@BigSiouxSaddlery below sounds like she has a tremendous amount of experience with the Landis, and would know more about your machine than I ever would. 

Edited April 2, 2021 by RemingtonSteel

[BigSiouxSaddlery]

LR needles are the only kind currently available in the 331 needle that the #1 takes. In fact, I have never seen an LL configuration for these needles, and I have a pretty extensive inventory of original, old stock needles.  I do believe there were some round point needles available at one time, but I've never run across any. I have owned and run Landis #1 machines for 30 years, and while I have many other models now, I still have a great fondness for these ancient beasts.  They are a very simple machine, and if they are not worn out, are able to do decent work with a few minor adjustments.

[BigSiouxSaddlery]

Jacob, what is the serial number on your machine?  You can find it stamped into the head to the right of the presser foot bar, on top of the machine.  Interesting that you have a wax/lube pot on top, I haven't seen many of those.  Can you tell if it looks like it was an aftermarket pot made for the #1, or something that was just made to work?  I have a couple top pots, but they are not identical to yours. When motorized power became available, many of the original treadle pedals were removed and discarded.  What's curious is that the big flywheel is still there.  Most of those were removed also, along with the whole boiler and waxing apparatus, to reduce weight when transporting. 

[BigSiouxSaddlery]

17 minutes ago, RemingtonSteel said:

Oh, and here is a handy Schmetz guide to Cutting points/Needles for stitching leather that can be downloaded if the above link ever dies:  leather-needles.pdf

@BigSiouxSaddlery below sounds like he has a tremendous amount of experience with the Landis, and would know more about your machine that I ever would.  I can only address 441 clones and general sewing questions.

I'm a "she" (born that way, and still am) but I won't hold it against you since I don't list my gender in my profile.  Vintage machinery rescue and rehabilitation is probably a very strange obsession for a female, but it's a lot more satisfying than shopping for things that would go on next year's garage sale!

[RemingtonSteel]

BigSiouxSaddlery, sorry, but I can't find an emoji that has egg on it's face so this one will have to do . You have my apologies and my respect.   Curious about the needle point though...  my guess of LL is based on the direction of the angled stitch, as my LL sample above matches the angle of Jacob's sample.

[BigSiouxSaddlery]

40 minutes ago, RemingtonSteel said:

BigSiouxSaddlery, sorry, but I can't find an emoji that has egg on it's face so this one will have to do . You have my apologies and my respect.   Curious about the needle point though...  my guess of LL is based on the direction of the angled stitch, as my LL sample above matches the angle of Jacob's sample.

It's possible that Schmetz made some 331 LL needles, but I've never seen them, and they aren't currently available new.  I do believe Singer made that needle in an S point, although I've never seen those either, and they would be very rare to find now.  Both the Bauer and the Pearson No. 6, took that same needle system.  There may have been other machines and applications that I don't know about.

[jacob1965]

Thank you for all the information 

I’m out of town will check serial numbers and needles. When I get back, came with a bunch of needles and feet.

thanks Jacob 

[jacob1965]

Quote

On the back the stitches are angled and look exactly like English style saddle stitching (not what you expected to see... expecting to see straight stitching like on top), which gives you the impression that the Landis is a saddle stitch machine even though you purchased what you thought was a lock stitch machine.

RemingtonSteel the stitch on the back being angled made me think something was wrong with the machine.  Thank you for the explanation 

The needle I'm using is a LR 

[jacob1965]

BigSiouxSaddlery I have two Landis 1 my neighbor was throwing one out and I grabbed it from the trash. It was not moving at all when I got it but after a lot of oil and cleaning it runs great but has some tension problems. The serial number on that one is 4578.

The Landis on the stand I just got has a serial number of 2576 

The wax pot has no makers mark on it or numbers so not sure if its original. 

 

 

 

 

[jacob1965]

Here are a few of the accessories that came with the Landis. What are the roller guides used for? The pressure foots have numbers on them is there a guide for when to use the different foots. It also came with several needles label #3. Hope to get some time next week to run some more test. 

[BigSiouxSaddlery]

2 hours ago, jacob1965 said:

Here are a few of the accessories that came with the Landis. What are the roller guides used for? The pressure foots have numbers on them is there a guide for when to use the different foots. It also came with several needles label #3. Hope to get some time next week to run some more test. 

The guides are used when the operator wishes to sew a long piece and remain a consistent distance from the edge.  There are two of them, a left and a right, because on a machine like the #1, they are most often used when stitching rounds or traces, especially if using a knife to sink the bottom stitches.  Both rounds and traces consist of multiple layers which like to twist and move around, making it much more difficult to stitch.

 

The manual has a general guide for the number of stitches per inch and which needle/thread combination to use on any given type of work.  The foot corresponds to the number of stitches per inch. So if you're sewing 5 spi, you use a number 5 foot.  You have to adjust the stitch length of the machine to match up to the marks the foot makes.  Again, the manual instructs how to do this.  

 

The closed toe foot with the knife in the bottom is for rounds.  It would typically be used in conjunction with a bottom knife, so that too and bottom stitches would be completely hidden from view in the finished round.  Bottom knives are almost impossible to find, but could probably be made by someone with a little knife making/metal working knowledge.

 

#3 needles are larger than you'll use for most work.  #4 is standard for average heavy work, probably equal to a modern day #230, although the original needles do not match up perfectly with the modern sizes.  The original needles are also of a much better design than the modern needles.

 

I'm glad you saved your neighbor's machine from the scrapyard. 

 

Both machines were made before 1910, judging by the serial numbers.

 

[RemingtonSteel]

3 hours ago, jacob1965 said:

The needle I'm using is a LR 

@BigSiouxSaddlery You were so right in your assessment that it was a LR point needle .  I just finished re-reading Schmetz's page on the LR and LL point needles, and it turns out that the direction of the loop (clockwise or counterclockwise) formed by the bobbin/lower thread can also impact the angle of the stitch.

3 hours ago, jacob1965 said:

BigSiouxSaddlery I have two Landis 1 my neighbor was throwing one out and I grabbed it from the trash.

Damn. Now that is what I call luck!

[jacob1965]

Quote

The foot corresponds to the number of stitches per inch. So if you're sewing 5 spi, you use a number 5 foot.  You have to adjust the stitch length of the machine to match up to the marks the foot makes.

Make sense, have to see what numbers foots I have. 

Thanks, Jacob 

[DrmCa]

Hoping I am not too late to the fight. Whenever one has tension issues at the start of the seam, make sure to hold the the tails of threads and gently pull on them when you begin to stitch. If you let them hang, the first stitches may be loose.

[sbrownn]

On 4/2/2021 at 2:28 PM, RemingtonSteel said:

On the back the stitches are angled and look exactly like English style saddle stitching (not what you expected to see... expecting to see straight stitching like on top), which gives you the impression that the Landis is a saddle stitch machine even though you purchased what you thought was a lock stitch machine.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think there is such a thing as a "saddle stitch machine".  As far as I know all sewing machines of this type employ a lock stitch.

[RemingtonSteel]

Sbrownn, you are not wrong. Jacob who is new to both leather work and stitching, thought his Landis 1 was making a saddle stitch purely on the observation that the back side looked like saddle stitch even though it was a lock stitch.

Edited April 11, 2021 by RemingtonSteel

[sbrownn]

I wish there was one though.