Stitches Not Overlap Or Touch

[mrtreat32]

Looking around at some websites online who have nice looking leather goods and I noticed that their stitches dont seem to touch one another or overlap the way mine do. ( Im just starting out)

Is this a combination of a bigger hole being punched with a smaller thread or maybe that combined with them pulling the stitches tighter than I am? Just curious on how someone could achieve this and is it a sign of a better stitch? Originally I thought that cleaner stitches should fill out the hole and overlap ever so slightly.

by the way I am using a Douglas slim blade and fl au chinois thread 432 practicing 7spi at the moment. Would I want to buy thinner thread to achieve this?

here are a few examples

http://img.purseforum.com/attachments/premier-designers/hermes/authenticate-this-hermes/1861743d1346950398-archive-6-01-13-authenticate-this-hermes-bag-stitching1-800x598-.jpg

http://www.theblackacre.net/shop/legion-trucker-wallet-russet

[camano ridge]

I would say you are using some pretty thick thread for that stitch count. I am right this minute stitching something 7spi using 277 thread. I will try to post a pic in little bit. It is nice and clean looking. I would think 432 would be kind of bulky looking for 7spi. I don't know what you are sewing, however I think you might get a less bulky look with that thread if you went down to 5spi. Do you have a picture of what you have stitched so we can see what your concerns are?

Edited April 24, 2014 by camano ridge

[mrtreat32]

I would say you are using some pretty thick thread for that stitch count. I am right this minute stitching something 7spi using 277 thread. I will try to post a pic in little bit. It is nice and clean looking. I would think 432 would be kind of bulky looking for 7spi. I don't know what you are sewing, however I think you might get a less bulky look with that thread if you went down to 5spi.

I definitely dont want to do more stitches per inch. In fact I want to try out 9spi pretty soon. Im just starting out but Im interested in making smaller items.

Maybe the thread is too big. Im a bit confused on how sizing works since it seems like different manufacturers label them differently?

http://www.fineleatherworking.com/linen-thread/waxed-linen-black

Here is a picture that shows you the thread Im using and what the size looks like for reference. It says they are using it on 9spi and it looks ok.

I ordered 2 small spools of tiger thread that I have not yet tried. one .008 and .006. The Fil au chinois 432 that I mentioned looks very similar in thickness to the .006 tiger thread. A lot of folks from what I read seem to like the 1mm tiger thread..seems like that would be big unless they are stitching large items with 5spi or less?

thank you. I have a ton to learn

[DavidL]

I stitch 7 spi using tiger thread and it looks different then hermes hand stitching when they use 532 or 432 on 9spi. 7 Spi 432/532 looks good and .8mm tiger also will look good if done properly. Its a matter of preference. For hermes I can't find a picture of the backside of stitching so i can't tell if they cast the stitch or not - I don't think they do.

The 45 degree angle stitch can only happen if you use a pricking iron and make an impression in the leather. Thick vegtan should be used for stitching 4 oz or higher.

[mrtreat32]

I stitch 7 spi using tiger thread and it looks different then hermes hand stitching when they use 532 or 432 on 9spi. 7 Spi 432/532 looks good and .8mm tiger also will look good if done properly. Its a matter of preference. For hermes I can't find a picture of the backside of stitching so i can't tell if they cast the stitch or not - I don't think they do.

The 45 degree angle stitch can only happen if you use a pricking iron and make an impression in the leather. Thick vegtan should be used for stitching 4 oz or higher.

so Hermes uses the fil 432 and 532? Im a bit confused on how the sizing works. What size tiger thread is equivalent to 432 fil thread? and what is 277? Different manufacturers use different sizing methods correct?

Im also experimenting with using size 4 and size 2 needles for this thread to find out what I prefer and works best for me. Both of these should be compatible its just a matter of preference right?

Casting the stitch is the way you hold it on the backside as you pass the second needle through right? Im watching all the videos I can find but its a lot to learn.

[DavidL]

so Hermes uses the fil 432 and 532? Im a bit confused on how the sizing works. What size tiger thread is equivalent to 432 fil thread? and what is 277? Different manufacturers use different sizing methods correct?

Im also experimenting with using size 4 and size 2 needles for this thread to find out what I prefer and works best for me. Both of these should be compatible its just a matter of preference right?

Casting the stitch is the way you hold it on the backside as you pass the second needle through right? Im watching all the videos I can find but its a lot to learn.

Tiger thread is easy to find out the measurements as they list them in mm. When you posted .008 I'm not sure in what measurement you ordered it in. If it is .8 then it is .8mm.

432 on fineleatherworking website is .62mm and 532 is .58mm. Tiger thread when stitched at .8 looks like a what 1mm linen thread would look. Tiger thread will always look bigger than Fil au chinois of the same size because it is a flat braid thread in my opinion.

needles should be smaller than the hole and 227 is in metrics? It is machine thread.

Casting the stitch is wrapping the backside thread around the front needle so that the backside sits at an angle. I still have trouble getting it right and prefer to not do it that way because the stitches look too angled to me. Doing it without the cast, the back for me has no angle..

[mrtreat32]

Tiger thread is easy to find out the measurements as they list them in mm. When you posted .008 I'm not sure in what measurement you ordered it in. If it is .8 then it is .8mm.

432 on fineleatherworking website is .62mm and 532 is .58mm. Tiger thread when stitched at .8 looks like a what 1mm linen thread would look. Tiger thread will always look bigger than Fil au chinois of the same size because it is a flat braid thread in my opinion.

needles should be smaller than the hole and 227 is in metrics? It is machine thread.

Casting the stitch is wrapping the backside thread around the front needle so that the backside sits at an angle. I still have trouble getting it right and prefer to not do it that way because the stitches look too angled to me. Doing it without the cast, the back for me has no angle..

Yeah I ordered a small amount of .008 in white and .006 in cigar but have yet to try it. It does appear bigger than the fil au chinois oh similar size.

So if I wanted to get something even smaller I would be out of luck with the tiger thread since the smallest I have seen listed on etsy or ebay is .006?

Have you found anything else that seems high quality for a cheaper price? I should probably be using something cheaper especially in the meantime since Im just learning.

My back stitches so far have no angle or very slight. Im pretty much just experimenting now before I attempt and actual projects. At the moment Im trying to follow the "art of hand sewing" instructions exact. ////////// punching holes like this, sewing towards my body, left comes through first, right hand needle making a cross and come over the left hand needle, and trying to place the second needle closer to me on the bottom angle of the holes. Do you have another method that is producing better results? A few tutorials I read online do it how I described but pass the right hand needle through the back and top of the hole.. if that makes any sense. I wonder how the results vary

[DavidL]

abbey england sells even smaller tiger thread under the name ritza. irish linen thread is less than half the price of fil au chinois and a slight cheaper than tiger thread and is good quality. The way you described is the same way i stitch, on the top of the hole.

Nigel armitage on youtube stitches towards himself and at the bottom of the hole and his stitches slant down rather than up. I've tried it myself with the needle at the bottom of the hole and it is still slanted upwards. Not sure how he does it that way. Other members will probably have some good responses.

[mrtreat32]

abbey england sells even smaller tiger thread under the name ritza. irish linen thread is less than half the price of fil au chinois and a slight cheaper than tiger thread and is good quality. The way you described is the same way i stitch, on the top of the hole.

Nigel armitage on youtube stitches towards himself and at the bottom of the hole and his stitches slant down rather than up. I've tried it myself with the needle at the bottom of the hole and it is still slanted upwards. Not sure how he does it that way. Other members will probably have some good responses.

I saw that in one of his videos and tried it and got the same slanted angle as I normally do

So you pull through the left needle first from the back and the second needle in your right hand comes forward and down. correct? maybe I described the way Im doing it wrong. so with a hole like this //// after I pass the back (left side) needle through. I try to bring the right handle needle in front of that and down so that it is in the lower corner of that slant closer to my body.

[DavidL]

I finally found a way that I like that gets a good looking stitch. Left needle first from backside. Right needle in front of left needle - not on top but away from your body. Then the right needle goes in the hole above or below the hole but keep it the same the whole time. The left thread is 135 degrees and the right thread is -45 degrees. This is how i get my stitches to look good.

I saw that in one of his videos and tried it and got the same slanted angle as I normally do

So you pull through the left needle first from the back and the second needle in your right hand comes forward and down. correct? maybe I described the way Im doing it wrong. so with a hole like this //// after I pass the back (left side) needle through. I try to bring the right handle needle in front of that and down so that it is in the lower corner of that slant closer to my body.

I use 532 fil au chinois on 3 oz veg tan kangaroo - 7spi and 3mm awl.

my tiger thread is going to be used a lot less. Im really liking the results. 632 is also going to be in my cart for 9 SPI.

Edited April 24, 2014 by DavidL

[mrtreat32]

I finally found a way that I like that gets a good looking stitch. Left needle first from backside. Right needle in front of left needle - not on top but away from your body. Then the right needle goes in the hole above or below the hole but keep it the same the whole time. The left thread is 135 degrees and the right thread is -45 degrees. This is how i get my stitches to look good.

I use 532 fil au chinois on 3 oz veg tan kangaroo - 7spi and 3mm awl.

my tiger thread is going to be used a lot less. Im really liking the results. 632 is also going to be in my cart for 9 SPI.

Stitches looks nice!

I spoke too soon. Mine don't overlap anymore. I was sewing on a single piece of leather up until yesterday to practice my stitching but last night I tried working on a actual project and my stitching looks much different now that I have 2 pieces of veg tan that Im going through. Im guess the thickness of the project influences the way they form somewhat.

Tried out the white tiger thread (.006) for the first time and I got better results than the Fil au chinois. Maybe it looked better partially because I was sewing a light piece of veg tan and the black had a lot more contrast to show off any mistakes. Still need to get the back of my stitches looking decent...all over the place at the moment.

Tiger thread I was able to thread the needle on the first attempt each time and the Fil au chinois I can't for the life of me get it down. It takes me 3-4 attempts to get it through the eye.. I have tried the slanted knife trick and I wax the ends etc. not really sure what Im doing wrong.

[YinTx]

DavidL,

I was just looking at the backside of your stitching, and noted that it appears the slant of your thread is opposite the slant of the holes. IE, where the thread would be in the bottom of the hole as in the front side stitch, it is in the top instead. Can anyone indicate whether this is correct or not? I too am still in the process of learning stitching by hand, and I want to have a correct and even result as well, which I am discovering takes much patience, practice, the correct tools for the correct thread, and an understanding for what the correct outcome should be.

YinTx

[DavidL]

Back stitching slants the opposite direction of the front. That was done a year ago and I don't have it on hand. Based on how the thread lays nearly flat I can tell that was done with a regular stitch (leather is too thin to cast thread anyways)

If I casted the thread it would be same direction.

Out of all the stitching I have done I haven't been able to fully replicate the stitching above. Why? I don't know for sure. The change from then is I no longer use leather like that anymore (which was hard and dense kangaroo) and just as important I sanded down my dixon iron teeth width slightly thinner. That specific picture above I hit all the way through with my iron and stabbed to open it up as I go.

When it comes to getting consistent stitching the variables are extremely important. So my post will be in-depth about things that seemingly don't matter but makes tiny changes to the stitching.

All the common things, like keeping you awl straight, 45 degree angle, hitting the pricking iron solidly (solid NEVER hollow backing like a tree stump) is important. Hammering glued edges first to combine the two leathers into one. If you don't do these for sure the stitching will not look the best it could. Stiffer leathers in my opinion create a better looking stitch.

More in-depth things include keeping your forearm stiff. A different thickness of awl for different SPI. It may not seem like a difference but the hole in the back needs to be bigger for thicker SPI, meaning thicker thread - too small on the back side the thread lays uneven because its compacted in, it needs some room to lay properly. Grinding your awl to a rounded tip rather than a pointy tip - the small tip isn't great in my opinion, a youtuber under the name leathertoolz has a video talking about this exact subject.

Even more in-depth is focusing on the arm movements like a rhythm like you are shooting a pool shot, basketball shot or whatever. Placing the needle in the hole quickly and pulling the thread at the same angle and strength. Overtime you shouldn't need to think about anything.

Best things to make sure:

Technique is proper

thread, SPI, and thickness of awl is proper

Leather is stiff and high quality leathers, better quality the stitches look better

Not letting your focus stray

Thing to look out for:

Too soft of a leather (very difficult to keep tension light, hole closes up quick) - sometimes unpredictable stitch

not too thick of leather over 6mm - difficult to stab through all pieces besides pricking all pieces individually

Anyways.. thats just how I look at it. Once you figure out what works with all the practicing you don't have to think about it at all and the information will come to your brain like the way you can recite your birthday, your favourite foods without thinking. Some may say parts of it are wrong so the only way to tell is practice and figure out what is true for you.