Harfindel

I ran across the information for one of the catalog saddles that I mentioned in the previous post. Here is a photo of it. Records indicate that it sold at an auction for $700 in 2008. Also, if you really wanted to establish whether yours is a catalog saddle, or made by Harding himself, you could check the manufacturing schedules to the nonpopulation census for Deadwood in the years 1890 and 1900. They would have a description of each business doing more than $500 of production per year, and would very likely have an entry for Harding's saddlery if he was a maker.

Ok, so here are a couple other examples of research into historical saddles, this time into stirrups. First, here in the first picture is a set of unusual spring-suspension stirrups, listed on Ebay. The base of the stirrups is marked "Patent applied for." A search of the USPTO database for stirrup patents, pre-1920, yielded an exact match, with US Patent No. 726,534, issued to John Hollicott, Tascosa TX, on April 28, 1903. So based on the marking, that would make the stirrup set no later than the spring of 1903. As a second example, another listing on Ebay some time ago showed an early California saddle, unmarked with any maker's stamp. (See pic) But the exposed cantle showed the name "MARK WEST", while the stirrups were stamped as patented by Knight, Jan. 30, 1877, and April 10, 1877. A search was able to confirm that the reference on the stirrups was to patent nos. 186,853 and 189363, respectively, and that the construction of the particular stirrup on the saddle corresponded to the second patent. (pics) Even more specifically, Knight received another patent on December 25, 1877, meaning that the particular stirrups on the CA saddle were almost certainly made in 1877. Mark West is listed as an available brand of saddle tree in the 1880 catalog of Main & Winchester. So the saddle is very likely from the late 1870's to the early 1880's.

Since people often ask here about the history of particular saddlers, I thought it might be interesting to post an example of a case study. I recently got a hold of an early California half seat saddle that is in fairly decent condition. It is marked in one place with the name "MESSING." (pics posted below) Initial searches on the internet didn't yield much, but there is a very short entry in Ruxton listing "H. Messing & Son" as active in the 1880s. Sure enough, the mark on the saddle showed a mis-strike of the "H" portion of the stamp, but no "& SON". That opened things up, and after some searching of various databases I was able to put together a pretty extensive history of the saddler, John Henry Messing, and his business. Seems the saddle is from 1859-77, before he took his sons in as partners. I was surprised at the amount of detail that came up, and had to put it in a timeline to keep track of it. One of his ancestors had posted a photograph of him, too. Anyway, I am posting a .pdf of the timeline in case people are interested. I am assuming that this situation is not unique, and that similar detail could be found on other saddlers. H Messing Timeline.pdf

Hey thanks for these replies. Just to give you an update, Bork Hardware agreed to take the one good Dee and make a set of bronze reproductions of them. At the moment I am waiting for the new Dees to arrive. I'll post a pic when they get here. The couple that runs Bork hardware are really nice people.

I am reconditioning/repairing a small (11") saddle that was made about 1940 by W.D. Allison. It is double rigged with aluminium dees. Someone relined the saddle decades ago, and perhaps made other changes, too. One of the rigging dees that is currently on the saddle appears to be original (near side, front), but the other three do not match and, frankly, look to be poor quality, homemade jobs that were installed during a brother-in-law repair. I would like to get new dees on the saddle that are at least something close to the look of the original. I guess brass would be nicest, but at this point I am not that picky Does anyone know where a person can get reproduction rigging dees? I have contacted Bork Saddlery Hardware http://borksaddleryhardware.com/ but I think they don't have something as small as I need. (The leather straps from which the dees hang are 1 3/4 inches wide and I would like to avoid changing them if I can. The dees at their widest are 2 1/4 inches wide.) I am attaching a photo of the one good dee, so people can see the details of it. I left the others out of the photo in case someone just ate. The back side of the good dee is stamped "JAPAN", go figure. Any help would be greatly appreciated. The saddle is for my daughter. Thanks in advance.

I can add this bit of information: It appears J.A. Harding died in Deadwood in 1902. http://www.findagrav...r&GRid=80431112 Also, Dakota ceased being a Territory and became a State on November 2, 1889. If one assumes that your saddle was made sometime between 1884 and 1889, or at least 1902, that would make it a dated, relatively early example of a Sam Stagg-rigged saddle, which would make it attractive to some collectors, I would think, given that it is mostly original. You can find copies of the Sears & Roebuck catalog from 1897, I believe, which has illustrations of the various saddles that Sears would supply. There are Sam Stagg-rigged saddles in there; one might match yours pretty closely. It might explain the "No. 31" stamped on the skirt, too. I agree that it would be best to have the saddle restored by someone who knows what he or she is doing. It could could be essentially destroyed by someone else. You might find the articles and stuff written by Rick Sherer to be of interest re: historical saddle restoration. People here have spoken highly of the book by Alain Eon, too. You can get the auction results for a few early Sam-Stagg catalog saddles on the historical database of www.liveauctioneers.com. I think you will find that $500 for the saddle, once it is restored, is a stretch. If you can establish that Harding made his own saddles I would think it would be worth somewhat more, but not as much as a one made made by one of the saddlers who was/is better known. Good luck with it - the saddle is definitely a pretty cool find.

Oh, hmm, just one more thought. The earliest Sam Stagg-rigged saddles I have been able to find are double-rigged, from Colorado/Wyoming. My guess is that single-rigged Sam Stagg saddles did not come around until later, as the California and Texas/Colorado/Wyoming saddle styles were apparently pretty separate until around 1900.

Sorry that I am coming a bit late to this discussion. On the chance that the OP might find this useful I will post it here. I have been doing some research on the history of the Sam Stag rigging, as well as the etymological origin of the "Samstag/Sam Stagg/Sam Stack" name. From what I have found it appears that the rigging style was developed in order to improve the security with which the the front rings of the rigging were attached to the saddle tree, at a time when screws were expensive and not easily obtainable. (Nails had been mass produced in the US since before 1810, so they were around.) The rigging style seems to have become prominent at about exactly the same time and place that the steel saddle horn was invented (the horn was patented so it can be dated very accurately) - which would make sense since Sam Stagg rigging depends heavily on the integrity of the horn. Sam Stagg rigging appears to have been superceded by other constructions as "state of the art" in the early 1890's - which is coincidentally exactly the time period when wood screws began to be available widely and cheaply in the US. So anyway, I would think that, If you are going to make a reproduction of a Sam Stagg-rigged saddle that is truly accurate to the 1875-1890 period, you would want to stay away from using any screws, and stick with nails, lacing, or rivets. (Rivets were also readily available at that time). The best document I have been able to find that sets out the details of what is now called the Sam Stagg construction is Harry Adam's book. Actual Sam Stagg rigged saddles from the relevant period (as opposed to ones made later, after the rigging was just nostalgic) are not easy to find and view in person. The best document I have found with photos of dated Sam Stagg saddles from the period is The Cheyenne Saddle, by James Laird. The construction was apparently never patented or described in a patent from the period, though it is clearly shown in patent drawings that can definitely be dated to the early 1880s. By that time the construction was apparently so widely known that it did not merit any special mention in the patent description. Sorry for going on about this. The whole Samstag/Sam Stagg thing has been really bugging me and so I have been spending my spare time studying it. If anyone knows of an actual use of the term "Samstag," etc., in reference to this type of saddle prior to the Windy Bill lyric in the 1920's, I would love to hear about it. Or if anyone knows the basis for the assertion in Ruxton that the rigging was invented by Joseph Samstag, I would love that, too.

I will add my two cents here on reconditioning the leather. If the leather is really dry and inflexible, I would clean it with a good paste saddle soap, dissolved in water in the usual way, or a glycerin spray soap. While the leather is still moist from this, I would apply a light coat of pure glycerin and let it soak in. Then I would apply a light coat of a 1:2 mixture of neatsfoot oil and pure liquid lanolin. After that soaks in, then I would finish with one or more coats of the sort of thinned wax-based conditioners mentioned in the threads here, as often as the leather needs to drink it in. When that is done, clean the residue off the surface with a lightly oiled rag, and buff. If the leather has been sitting around for a very long time without being cared for, it likely has both a poor water moisture and oil content, and will not withstand handling much. If the internal structure of the leather is not disrupted, though, after reconditioning it should be pretty good. This process will take a span of days and, except for setting the leather in the sun to get it warm, you really can't rush it much. Good luck. ^^

If the alcohol dooesn't work, you might try acetone. I would be particularly careful of what the acetone might do the the pre-existing dyes, though. I agree that the leather should be reconditioned afterward to ensure that it ends up with a sufficient amount of moisture and oil in it

To my (unschooled) eye the overall shape of the saddle looks somewhat like this saddle, especially the fork, horn, and seat. http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=18725# The Stament saddle, though, appears to have a lower, more modernly shaped cantle. Am I right in understanding that trees with this shape of swell fork basically went out of style in the 1930's or so, replaced by the more agressively undercut "widowmaker" shape of fork?

Thanks for these observations, steveh. The fellow was born in 1911. I guess then this means he made the saddle as a very young man. Anyone else have thoughts?

Hmm, that patent did not issue until 1967. Can the saddle really that recent? The fellow died in 1973 as a 62-year old. I am thinking that the adjusters may be later additions, installed under a very good repair.

I recently bought this saddle from ebay. Some of you might recognize the pictures from there. It is marked "Ed Stament Saddlery MPLS". At the time no one could find out anything about the maker, but I live in Minneapolis/Saint Paul and so I bid on it with the thought that I might be able to connect it to some history. Well, it turns out that Ed Stament was a lifelong rodeo clown, and his descendants still live in town. They are curious about the saddle, because much of the history about the man is no longer with them. They are trying to find people who might still remember things about the fellow and his saddlery, but I was wondering, can people notice details about the saddle, like the age, style of construction and sort of use to which is was to be put? The saddle uses actual Blevins-brand adjusters, marked with the location of Wheaton, Wyo., and the original patent number 3,314,121, and they appear to be original to the saddle. As far as the seller was able to learn, the saddle has been owned until recently by an Amish farmer in Missouri. It appears to have seen only gentle use, and is in very good shape, though the fleece is worn out in spots on forward portion of the the right skirt Anything you guys can observe would be nice to pass on to the family. I thought if anyone could tease details out by looking, it would be you all.

Not sure if this will help, but there is a low-aromatic kerosene that is used by leather preservationists as a carrier for oils, such as neatsfoot and lanolin, as a step in reconditioning. The oil/kerosene mixture is applied to the leather, and the low aromatic kerosene is allowed to evaporate slowly, over a span of weeks. I have not used the kerosene myself but it might be useful as a cleaning agent, if the leather were reconditioned immediately afterwards.

The Wyeth in the second link is a re-listing, I think. As I recall, the original bidding did not meet the reserve.

My sense is that good-quality leather lacing would be sufficent, since some saddles were constructed that way from the start, but I would be interested to hear from those who know more. On a related issue, can one still buy quick-adjust al-ray buckles from somewhere, or are they out of production?

Well, I can be accused of being a newbie at this, but here goes ... There is a lot of information out there about restoring and preserving leather, that is written by book preservationists. I work at a school that has a preservationist, and I have been talking with her and others about this, with the idea of finding things that are useful for restoring saddles. (The librarians think the idea of preserving saddles is cute, and that thinking about it is a nice break from library work.) Here is a good article on how the upper-end preservationists would approach a rare book: http://www.kb.nl/cons/leather/chapter5-en.html As you can see, they have given the subject a lot of thought. Basically, for saddle leather, I think good steps are: 1. clean 2. restore the leather's ability to hold water 3. restore the leather's oil content 4. finish and waterproof the leather's top, exposed surface For cleaning, I have had luck in carefully removing the piece in question (so as not to crack it further), then soaking it in water until it is pliable, and washing it with a mild saddle soap, applied by a very soft brush. I do this in repeated rinsings until the dirt and soil is as gone as I can get it. To restore the leather's abiility to retain water, I was told by a chemist (who was also a horse person) to apply vegetable glycerin. It is water-based and sinks into the leather rapidly, then dries out slowly over a few days. (Note that the librarians don't do this. o_O ). As for restoring the oil, I have been using liquid lanolin, thinned with just enough neetsfoot oil to make it sink into the leather. This mixture will disperse into the deeper parts of the leather in a day or two, in my experience, eventually returning the surface to a light color. Then, to finish, I coat with a thinned beeswax product, like Blackrock or Fiebing's Aussie conditioner. Let it sit for a day or two (best in sun to get some heat on it) and then wipe off the wax that remains. I only finish one side, so the leather can breathe out the back. Then you reassemble, and ride off into the sunset, or something like that. I agree that you have to be careful about not spending time on leather that is badly cracked, as the cracks will stay. But even then, if the leather is fully restored, the layer that used to be hard and inflexible (where the cracks are) will return to being soft and pliable, so even light to moderate cracking might not be objectionable, if the saddle is something you really want. Anyway, that has been my experience, so far. I would be interested in hearing anyone's reactions to it. No idea at all where dyeing might come into this.

Hi all. I am new here - not a saddlemaker, just getting into repairing and restoring saddles as a hobby. I have built fly rods and other various things as hobbies over the years, so I am hoping I can catch on eventually. I was looking that Foster saddle when it was on ebay, and found this article: http://www.dentonrc.com/sharedcontent/dws/drc/localnews/denton/stories/DRC_Fosters-Break-in_0915.17f2e846a.html It mentions that the fellow's dad built saddles in the 1960's and 1970's, so that's about the right time. Denton is near DFW, too, I think. Anyway, not sure if this is connected, but I thought I would set down the link. Very interesting forum, by the way.