Rod and Denise Nikkel

Yes, we have made trees for gaited horses, including Paso Finos, and had good feedback from the riders on how well they work on their horses. Just PM us if you have questions or want more information.

Thanks Mike. They are pretty, but they are made to be practical so they get covered up and most people never know who made the frame to their saddle. "Only the saddle maker knows for sure..." Glad you find the site interesting even if you don't build saddles. I am always amazed at how people create in any area. It is fun to see the process.

This topic has been discussed a bit before, but specifics haven't been given. When a saddle is new, the shearling will make the saddle ride a bit higher till it gets packed down a bit. How many hours riding time do you experienced saddle makers think it takes to get the saddle to sit down on the back the way it will be long term?

I'm glad you are finding the website informative. Thast was the main goal in setting it up - shedding some light on the "black hole" that saddle trees seem to be at times. Richard, yes, there is art that goes into the trees as well, and Rod is the artist in this duo. He can look at something and shape it smoothly and evenly so it looks beautiful with just a couple of lines to guide him. He has the eye to do that. (I, on the other hand, can make the books work out to the penny, so it is a good partnership. Denise) I'm glad you enjoyed the course at Sheridan as well. We sure enjoyed giving it. CW, Before Rod had seen your post, I asked him "What is the most dangerous part of building a tree?" His answer, "Rawhiding. Cutting myself with the knife." So he's not too worried about the big equipment! Actually, infection to the point of blood poisoning from the wet rawhide is a real danger and most tree makers have had it. I'm grateful for antibiotics!

Thanks for the comments. It makes me feel good knowing that at least a few people have looked at the pictures because doing website stuff is hard work! Building trees isn't quite as simple as taking a piece of wood and "whittling away anything that doesn't look like a saddle tree". It isn't rocket science, but it isn't kindergarten either. And the equipment needed to build trees in a consistent manner means it isn't something you can do in your basement in the winter as a hobby. There is a reason hand made trees cost what they do, and it isn't because the makers are getting rich building them. But the main reason we put this section up was so that as saddle makers learn and understand more about trees, they can know more of how to order what they want in order to make their saddles better. That is the long term goal - satisfied customers for all of us! But please, remember that "every tree maker does things differently" and work with your tree maker and the way they do things. Thanks again for the kind words.

We just wanted to let people know that we have added a couple more sections to our website. There are a number of pages with pictures of Rod Building a Saddle Tree here http://www.rodnikkel.com/content/index.php/building-a-saddle-tree/ . This isn't a tutorial but it does show how we build trees. These pictures just show how we build our trees. A lot of hand made tree makers do it in a similar, but not identical manner. Some do it differently, and the production shops are quite different in their methods. We say that every tree maker does things differently for a reason! And then there is the Tour of the Tree Shop here http://www.rodnikkel.com/content/index.php/tour-of-shop/. We thought some of you might be interested

Joe, We're glad you enjoyed the seminar and found it helpful. We sure enjoyed doing it. We had a great group of people there, and their diverse experiences were good for seeing things from different viewpoints. I guess that is what these classes are all about and I am glad we had the opportunity to do one.

As has been stated before, the height of the cantle really affects the actual slope of the face of the cantle. To illustrate, here are two cantles with the same angle relative to the bars. One is 4 1/2" tall and the other is 3" tall, both with 1 1/4" dish. Quite the difference in slope. Take home message - shorter cantles need less dish to get the same slope as taller cantles, all else being equal. We have tried to explain more about this on our Cantles page if anyone cares to delve into their complexities... http://www.rodnikkel.com/content/index.php/understanding-tree-measurements/cantle-conundrums/

I have been enjoying reading a discussion in the boots and shoes section on making lasts, especially posts #8, 11 and 15 here: http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=31883 While there are pretty major differences between a last and a tree (a tree is part of the final product, a last is a tool used to make the final product, a shoe encases a foot, a tree sits on top of a horse's back, etc.) there are some very good points in this thread explaining why making a shoe over an exact replica of a foot is a bad idea. The same concepts apply to trees for the same reasons. Lots to think about...

Joel, We can't see a stirrup slot needing to be deeper than 1/4". You want the stirrup leathers to be able to move with the rider's leg and be changed out, etc. so you don't want them too tight. I guess if someone asked us for something special we would want to understand what and why so we could decide to do it or not.

Joel, We have never had anyone ask for a specific depth to the stirrup groove. We cut ours 1/4" deep and nail both the front and the back. We have seen some similar to ours and others a lot shallower. We have seen and heard of ones that have a full stirrup slot but it isn't nailed at the back (to prevent breakage?) but that means the rawhide bridges there and makes it shallow at the back. An Arizona bar has no back stirrup groove, as you know. When you look at skirts that have been used, you can generally easily see where the stirrup leathers contact the skirts. When weight is put into the stirrups, that pulls the stirrup leathers away from the bars and probably accounts for at least some of that indentation on the skirts. But, of course, if the stirrup slots are not deep enough the leathers will protrude below the bars. Interesting question we haven't been asked before.

Nice looking saddle to start with and it looks even better on a horse with with wear marks on it. Glad you are enjoying the new saddle and using it a lot, since that is what it was built for!

Thanks for the comments. We want it to be easy to read and clear since we mean it to be a good source of information for our saddle making customers.

We wanted to let people know that our new, improved website is up! We have redone all our old information articles and have a whole section on pictures of trees as well, plus a few more things. We have plans to add pictures of our shop and building a tree, but they will have to wait till after the Sheridan show at least. We have our seminar we are doing at Sheridan on Understanding Saddle Trees planned out but have to do the details on it yet, so that is the priority. Citizen Kate is the brains behind getting our website up and running (she's very tolerant of non-computer people's questions!), but we did the content, so please let us know if you see any glitches, links that don't work, mistakes etc. We'd love to hear any comments you have on the site too. www.rodnikkel.com

Casey, We don't build a lot of miniatures so we don't have one on hand to measure, but we did some some figuring. Here's our results: We have one miniature metal horn of the #4/Texas dally style. It's neck diameter is 1/2", measured with calipers. The diameter of our full size #4/Texas dally horns is 15/16", so the mini is a bit more than half size. We don't have one of these rawhided right now to check it's finished thickness, but it should be similar in diamter difference to the #6 we did measure. Measuring a full size #6/Hamley horn - diameter of the bare horn is 13/16" and circumference is 2 3/4". A rawhided one has a diameter of 1 1/8" and a circumference of 3 5/8". We generally count on about 1/8" of thickness for our rawhide, and we put the stoutest stuff over the fork and horn, so this works out. Measured some dried deer hide we use for strings. The super thick stuff we use for cantle thongs is 1/16" thick. (Incidentally, that is the thickness of the hide on a broken tree of unknown origin we have here to duplicate.) The stuff we use for lace is thinner but still over 1/32" thick. So it is half the thickness or less of our normal rawhide. Things to learn - use our thinner deer hide on minis so it looks proportional. We haven't actually used a metal horn yet. Most of the orders we have built have been Wades, and those that weren't were special styles that they didn't (maybe still don't) have metal horns for in miniature sizes. The one in this picture we posted has a wooden horn that we could shape the way the customer wanted it, but it ended up thicker just because it needed to be so it wouldn't break. Maybe if we used baltic birch we could make it that small and still have it strong enough. We actually have pictures of both the full size and half size saddles built on those trees and I checked out how the proportions looked. Yes, the neck of the horn on the miniature was thicker, especially with a Sam Stag rigging, but the cap looked right.

Casey, Interesting points from user's end. We use deerhide on our rawhided miniatures. I can see how if you used normal thin cowhide or even calf hide that comparatively it would be extra thick and you would see that especially around the horn since it is the smallest piece. Something to be aware of for sure!

Silver Cloud, Your question is a good one and made us sit down and write it all out. So here goes. For miniature trees, rawhide strengthens and protects the wood which would be quite fragile on its own. Compared to other coverings, the only advantage rawhide has for miniatures is tradition, so if someone wants a fully authentic miniature, then rawhide covered is what is needed. For normal saddle trees, rawhide has a few advantages. We did the “drive over a tree” test on one of our trees some years back. A normal pick up truck wouldn’t break it, but a loaded 3 ton moving truck squashed the center of the bars down to the concrete. Yet when we picked up the tree, although the lacing had broken in a couple places and the bottom edge of the bars were all scuffed from the concrete, the bar shape was back to normal and we could not make the bars bend. Taught us a lot about strength and flex in rawhide (and the strength of good quality wood underneath it)! So here are our top four advantages of rawhide covering on saddle trees. 1.) Good rawhide is strong. History and even the stories we have heard back on the wrecks that have happened to saddles with our trees in them over the past 15 years tell us that good rawhide covered trees are more than adequate for normal use and abuse (horses flipping over backwards, falling off mountains, etc.). We would put good hide from mature animals, particularly bulls, that isn’t split to be too thin up against any other material in use today as far as strength goes. Since rawhide is a natural material, there is a lot of variability in strength depending on the thickness and quality of the hide used, and this is where rawhide has been said to be weaker than other materials. All of the tests we have heard of have compared synthetic covered trees with built in groundseats against lower cost production trees (whose rawhide is thinner) without groundseats. And even in these tests, the rawhide covered trees came pretty close to the average breaking strength and some of the rawhided trees took greater pressure to break than the synthetic ones. We wonder what the results would be with better rawhide or against synthetic covered trees without the groundseats built in. 2.) Rawhide holds it shape once it is dry, yet it has some flex. Although we do not believe that saddle trees should flex under normal riding conditions, experience and practically tell us that when an cow hits the end of a rope that is attached to a horn there is going to be a pretty big jar on the tree that may be enough to cause some flexion. Rawhide will absorb that shock and come back to its initial shape, as the above story so convincingly proved to us. And once rawhide has dried around a tree, it isn’t going anywhere, even if the lace gets cut. 3.) Rawhide covered trees are easy for the saddle maker to work with. It is easy to nail and screw into and has good nail and screw holding ability. Nailing into it makes a hole in it but doesn’t weaken the hide around that hole. Bare rawhide is easy to glue onto and the glues stick well. The varnish or other protective coating used can affect gluing. 4.) Good rawhide has longevity. We know this because there are lots of 100 year old saddles still around with solid trees and good rawhide coverings. So long as rawhide is protected from too much moisture or sudden changes in humidity, and being chewed on by animals, it will last indefinitely. The concern about moisture is also over-emphasized at times. We have soaked some of our rawhide for a week to get it to the point it can be manipulated – not soaking wet, just somewhat pliable again. Lots of saddles go for swims in the river or are ridden for hours in the rain repeatedly without apparent effect on the rawhide. Fairly lengthly answer here to a short question, but thinking it through so we could write it out like this has been a good exercise for us. Thank you.

Josh, Thanks for the kind words. We would love to get a chance to meet you in person if you were able to make the Sheridan show.

I checked with Dot Reis. Looks like there are more than enough people to make it a go, but there is still room left for more. We're looking forward to it. Should be fun and lots of good discussion.

Five, We sent you a PM. Click the little green box by your name at the top right of the screen.

Kronic, It is hard to say anything for sure just from pictures and conversation on the net, but here is what we are thinking at the moment. The fact that removing the stirrup leathers makes a big difference tells you that the stirrup groove is too shallow for your leathers (which you have seen on the tree), so the leathers are increasing the rock and creating a pivot point and a pressure point on your horses. Is this the area they were sore last summer? The fact that removing them didn't totally eliminate the problem tells you there more going on that just that. The powder is basically along the upper/inner edge of the bars, showing that the bottom of the bars are not touching the horse. The tree therefore has too much angle and or is too wide for these horses. So you have both the too wide and the too much rock problem happening which is what is causing the saddle to pull down in the front and pop up at the back. Pulling a too wide tree down on the front creates pressure points right where the black wear marks are on the first photos you posted and I expect that is where your horses were sore on the front end, and would explain why your broader horses didn't have the severity of problems your younger ones did. The fact that the back of the right bar has no powder on it at all and the left has more could be just the way you powdered the horse or it could be the tree is twisted somehow. You may want to check that out more. This would explain the reason behind the problems. I doubt that deepening the stirrup grooves, even if that were possible, would resolve your problems. There is too much else going on.

According to the show booklet, the days of these events have changed this year. The show is Thursday through Saturday now, no Sunday. King's gathering is Wednesday night and Sheridan Leather Outfitter's is Thursday night, opposite the awards reception. We'll be there! We're teaching a seminar all day Thursday in the Appaloosa Room and we will have a booth by the restaurant too, so we will be easy to find during the show if anyone is looking for us. I think the LW name tag is a good idea. Putting faces and real names to the names we have on here is always good fun!

Neat old saddles and nice trees in good shape. Great surface area on those bars. Thanks for posting the pictures.

Steve, No reason to kick yourself. Pete Gorrell and Bob Klenda are both getting up there in years and it is good to learn from experienced makers while they are still teaching. This year is a first for us teaching at the show so in some ways it is an experiment for us both. We'll see how it goes this year before there are any decisions made about future seminars. Right now we are just looking forward to having the opportunity this time.

Steve, we have a booth at the trade show in the east terrace by the restaurant so we won't be hard to find. Stop by and we can chat. We won't be at the booth Thursday, since that is when we are giving our seminars, but we'll be there all day Friday and Saturday. What I really wanted to call the sessions was "Saddle Trees from a Tree Maker's Perspective" – the top side and the bottom side - but I figured it was too long a title for the booklet so it is called "Understanding Saddle Trees" - the last entry on the sign up page on the website. What we offer that hasn't been offered before is the tree maker's perspective. Saddle trees seem to be this black hole of the unknown to many saddle makers. There is little to no information out there about trees from those of us who build them. We will talk a lot more about trees than just fitting horses, but as far as that section of our talk goes, this is the main difference between Pete's and our presentation. I have been to Pete's talk, and he does a very professional job of teaching useful information from a saddle maker's perspective (of course!) – you get what you get and you have to figure out how to work with it. So once you get it, how do you evaluate how well it works? We come at it from a different perspective – looking at the different components in the tree that we can change and how we change them to make it work for different situations - different uses, different riders, different horse types. When saddle makers understand more about how trees go together (I'm talking the effect of angles and measurements on how it works, not what screws or glue gets used!) then they can evaluate trees in a different way – by the components involved. In all this, we will not be promoting our own trees (honest), but discussing the concepts behind how trees work that apply to all trees. While we can't tell saddle makers specifically how to order from different makers to get what they want, we can give them the things they need to measure to figure out some of how that tree maker does things, or give them ideas of things to discuss with their tree maker that they might not have thought of before (but the tree maker probably has). This is what we want to explain, and what Pete's talk doesn't give because he isn't a tree maker and so he can't understand it from the tree maker's side. While some of what we talk about is the same subject, what the people will learn from each talk should complement each other because we come at it from two angles – the maker's end and the user's end. Since our talk will be on Thursday and Pete's is Friday morning, the people who come to our talk will be able to get that much more out of Pete's. So if you can take both, that would be ideal. If you can only take one - I guess you gotta choose! As far as videoing the sessions goes, we were planning on doing that for our own evaluation purposes. I guess we will see if anything more can come in the way of a video once we see how the talks go. The idea is something that is simmering in our brains at the moment, but we're not quite ready to run with it - yet. These seminars will be really valuable to us as we see what kinds of questions come up. Then we can tweak things as needed to make a video that much more valuable to saddle makers. Of course, if everyone just wants a video but nobody comes to the seminar...