Rodzhobyz

Sure, I can totally get why a shoe Patcher doesn't need a large bobbin, my point was actually trying to understand why a more modern industrial production machine like the 226 wouldn't benefit from having higher capacity bobbins such as the 206.

I believe this to be sound philosophy. Its also the logic behind the brand new cb4500 I drove 20+ hrs rnd trip to aquire just a couple weeks ago but them tears I'm only crying once haven't quite stopped flowing yet, so I'ma have to save up a bit for a new machine but in the meantime I ain't giving up on finding my used unicorn out there ... somewhere. As always, I appreciate the feedback. Roger.

These industrial sewing machines are for me, a prime example of "the more I learn the less I know". The bobbin size is an issue I keep forgetting to consider. So much really doesn't make practical since to me. I knew many of the old patchers are very limited by their bobbin capacity, but why on Earth, most of 100 years down the assembly lines, would engineers design a high production, nearly immortal industrial Sewing machine and then handicap it over some 0.02 sq in of real estate inside the machine? I can't imagine the additional costs of the larger bobbins having anything to do with restricting the bobbin size on a production model and I sure wouldn't think there's any advantage in having to stop & change them more frequently, but, Im sure there is perfectly logical reasoning behind it that shows off my complete ignorance. I am just thankful for you all who pitch in to help get an old green horn where he's trying to go. Cheers, Roger.

I been diligently searching cl 2 & 3x daily hoping to find a good Consew 226R or possibly but not likely a 227 or similar in 1/2 decent shape that I can afford within at least a somewhat reasonable driving distance from me. It may have to wait a bit tho, my side project - expense budget took a huge hit with the recent 4500 purchase and even when I've seen the 226's listed they have asked $800-$1200 used and usually that's with the clutch motors, so throw in the costs of a servo motor + speed reducer & that's gettn way out of my wheelhouse for now anyway. That's why the nearly brand new Juki 1181 including the servo motor / table for 40% of a new price looked so tempting to me. I've gotten so far in now tho, that I may as well either go ahead and spend the money for new or wait until I can find an ideal used machine for my light stuff. I could easily wait indefinitely on a bargain deal for my own needs, but, my wife works with her folks in a retail business & since I've started the leather working, she's jumped on board & is making a lot of delicate, jewelry - earrings - bracelets ect, to sell and wants lots of decorative stitching done that I am growing tired of due to the light thread set ups required to use the 4500. I was hopeful that one of my old Singer 15's or a 201 would serve those needs but the Cowboy has now spoiled me from anything without a walking foot. Cheers

Not surprisingly, the information provided in one of your replies to an old Post in the archives is where I learned about the drawbacks of the 1181with regards to sewing leather.

I dono much, yet, but From taking a look at that model type on eBay, I'd guess it's be like sewing with an airplane propeller. 8000 per min? I didn't see walking foot mentioned either, so I wouldn't think this would be anything like what you are after for sewing leather, but someone knowledgeable will be along shortly I am certain.

Thanks kgg. After more searching, I expect this machine probably isn't for me. I'd agree it's a good deal price wise, and having an almost brand new -1/2 price Juki is tempting, but it seems like there are many other machines out there more suited to my purposes. Sounds like at a minimum I would need to modify the feed dogs to keep veg tan from being chewed up and then add a speed reducer or swap pulleys to have control & as you say, it will never have compound feed. Cheers

I can get this machine, which looks to be in show room condition, from the original owner for $650 with the servo motor / table. I already have a CB-4500 to handle the heaviest material I may ever stitch, but am in the market for a flat bed to handle any light weight leathers and this looks to be a good deal, no? Thanks for offering any opinions, Roger

The video in this article is actually one of the two I watched on YT earlier today. The 2nd video detailing the foot installation process is what had me concerned about having to reset the action that is currently working so well with the feet that came on the machine. Reading the article, optimistic that the in line set I got from Bob Thursday are like your 2nd set, also plug n play with no need for shaft length adjustment, I just installed mine and tho not perfect, I can get both feet horizontally aligned by installing the rear foot at it's highest placement & lowering the front foot x 3/32 on its shaft. I will test on some scrap & see how it goes, thank you very much for your help. Roger.

I may be using the wrong key words to search the archives but after 1-1/2 hrs trying I've not found what I'm after & I don't have a full service manual to reference yet. I need to install the in line pressor ft set and I found a good video on YT, but it didn't quite get me there. I understand from the video how to install / adjust the rear pressor foot but to adjust the front foot height and balance the feet, the guy said to loosen the HEX bolt, which was out of frame of the camera while he turned it and I cannot figure out where that hex bolt is. And I am a little fearful that doing this foot change / jacking with the feet heights could completely foul up a machine that is currently giving me perfect stitching regardless of what type or thickness of leather I throw in it or what weight thread I use, it just looks great and I'm not ready to give that up for hair pulling sessions just yet so I'd be willing to put finishing the projects off that require the swap if anyone tells me that is a real possibility. Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks, Roger.

Thanks but what had me head scratching was, most of my other machines, although non-industrial, have a means of disengaging the main shaft while winding bobbins. No biggie, just hadn't considered it till time came to actually do it. This I've never considered, but is probably a more effective lube method and will become S.O.P. for me. Thanks.

So far it's actually going better than I'd expected. Just taking it slow for now & getting a feel for it, changing thread sizes & sewing different sample thicknesses ect. A few things I realize I wish I had thought to ask Bob about tho, like, winding the bobbin while I am not sewing at the same time and then the drop down roller guide / pressor foot lever don't geehaw so well, but so far I have found resolution to all concerns in the forum archives and overall the operation has been flawless & considering I've never used anything like it, I couldn't be more satisfied. Cheers.

I found this forum while in search of information in an attempt to educate myself before making an investment in a leather sewing machine. In just over a week of searching / studying the archives and even a bit of feedback offered directly from seasoned members, I went from total novice to being able to confidently make a sound model choice and understand the advantages of purchasing new, from a reputable source, Bob, who I am sure will be there for me if a need arises. Just wanted to say thank you to all who so generously take the time to share information here. Without this resource I feel sure I would have ended up going with an overpriced, used machine, a model less suited for my needs, quite possibly worn out and certainly wouldn't have had customer support services. Since I am a leatherworking novice and not really able to contribute knowledgeable assistance to the forum, I hope the monetary offering will be of at least some benefit to the membership here in return for the years of experience I am being provided. I saved myself from experiencing at least two more problems just from reading thru the archives again this morning. I just got home with the machine and set it up last night, (a chore my gonads are still not happy over), and even though I am still intimidated and maybe a little frightened of it, I am not worried in the least because I have access to the wealth of information collected and recorded here from contributors who have most likely already encountered and overcome most of the problems I will have or create for myself. Thank you all, Roger.

This is absolutely first class work! Beautifully done and after visiting the link to your site, I will soon be a customer for one of your needle plates. Cheers.

So after much agonizing whether to buy a 3200 or 3500, I ended up with neither. First, I gotta say that making this two day (+) trip was, without doubt the right thing to do to make the best purchase decision, especially having almost zero hands on experience with these machines. Although I'd likely have been happy if I had just ordered any of the models & had it shipped, being able to see them side by side changed the perspective and even though I will probably never make a saddle and might never need it's full clearance / capacity, the advantage of spending yet a little more was painfully evident seeing how short the 3500 arm was in comparison to the 4500 and after another moment of agony, decided to make the full leap. No surprise to anyone here I am certain, Mr Bob Tovar is the perfect salesman to get you outfitted with the right equipment for whatever your sewing needs are, there was no pressure, no up-selling efforts, no BS, just knowledge offered to help make a decision and all questions answered thoroughly. I have blown so far beyond the budget I'd had in mind to begin with at this point that it's irrelevant, but, as Bob pointed out, if the time comes I do loose interest in it, these machines have a good resale value and the 4500 is certainly useful for a broader range of potential buyers and would probably sell even quicker than the 3500 or 3200 ect, so I am the proud owner of a new CB 4500 and even tho I'm a little lighter in the wallet than I'd anticipated, there is sure no chance of regretting not buying a little larger machine and judging from the looks of the stitching on the lighter material samples I took in with me, I expect the 4500 will easily handle 90% + of any projects I anticipate making. Cheers!

It's the 3500 I am considering if not the 3200 and it will take #69 thread also. And I am fine with the cylinder diameter on either one so will most likely bite the bullet and go with the 3500.

Thank you. It is very reassuring to hear so much positive feedback from satisfied Cowboy / Toledo customers when I am about to spend such a chunk of $ on equipment that I am not intimately familiar with. Im no spring chicken myown self and not 100% sure I will want to always stand & sew but I figure if I get the adjustable table, at least Ill have the option to do whichever works best for me. Cheers

I'm pretty excited. After much indecision, I have decided to go with a Cowboy from Bob at Toledo for my 1st leather machine. Bob has been readily available and a pleasure to discuss the options with. It is a terribly long drive and of course shipping is available, but I really want to meet the vendor and take advantage of any hands on information / education I can get and of the two available vendors for me, I live 8-1/2 hrs from one in Texas and 9+ hrs from Toledo. The Texas option would've saved me an HR of driving but I wasn't able to talk details with anyone there and Bob is Johnny on the spot. I am just about to leave home on my 9+ hr drive and will meet Bob in the morning. I now have about 21 hrs to decide if there's any reason, as far as for my use, to spend the difference & purchase the 3500 instead of the 3200. The cost difference is certainly not insignificant, and at the moment I don't see myself ever sewing anything 7/8", however, 9/16" - 5/8" may not be out of the question and both machines have the same specs as far as the 6 oz lightest weight capacity, but the 3500 is supposedly capable of sewing nearly double the thickness of the 3200 and so I can only imagine it being a far heavier duty built machine, which all other things being equal, I prefer. If this were a profitable endeavor I suppose it would be a no-brainer, but the 3500 would effectively double the budget I was hoping to get into a machine for. I do fear regretting the decision in the future. Having the 3500, along with a couple of the vintage machines I already own for the 6oz & under needs, should pretty well give me the capability to produce anything I might want. Besides not having the adjustable table height / standing option, which Bob has agreed to provide for the 3200 for the cost difference, is there even one single feature or advantage that the 3200 has over the 3500 that I am not finding? Cheers.

Thank you Wizcrafts. But now that posts-topic is almost enough to put me off of a used machine. Not that I couldn't eventually determine the cause of and correct such an issue, but I have to assume that situation could be one of countless possible mechanical anomalies for which I am not yet prepared to effectively troubleshoot on my own. This will require a bit more consideration. Since I am starting fresh, without local consult and have no desire to become a forum nuisance, I may be better off paying the premium for new equipment and the services provided rather than risk having to learn to be a qualified machine tech at the same time as learning to craft leather. Much to learn... Thanks again, Roger.

I very much appreciate every bit of input everyone has offered. Sometimes the same information with a different phrasing can shine a little more light on a subject. I have no illusions and no doubt that I am about to purchase but the first of multiple machines that will eventually be required if I am to work with the entire range of possibilities that leather crafting offers. This being a relatively new hobby for me, I can't be sure how deeply I may go into it, so was hoping to wet my feet and develop skills starting with less expensive - used equipment, especially since Im no stranger to a wrench. The problem I encountered while test sewing the used Juki 341, after further research, I have just about determined that the machine did not in fact jump time, but likely was user error that caused thread to jamb in the bobbin / shuttle and caused the safety clutch to engage. The rep I was with at the time, who stayed after hours until I could get there, was not familiar with the machine and asked me to return the next business day and they would have the problem corrected. I am feeling a little better about maybe going with the used machine, especially with parts so readily available and many resources to learn from plus there is no new machine dealer less than about a 5 hr drive one way from me that I have been able to find. Provided it in reasonably good condition, surely a Juki 341 would be an asset in any leather shop and one that I wouldn't out grow for the range of work it is designed for?

Thanks and yes I mis stated the model earlier but the Cowboy 3200, not 341 seems the best candidate for me right now at least budget wise, if I go with a brand new machine. Since I don't anticipate this being a profitable endeavor for me, just another means of wiping a work week off the books and crafting a few gifts, Im not committed to making holsters, but would rather have a little heavier equipment than absolutely necessary, at least to the point I can still stitch lighter +-2oz material. I'm more looking for thoughts / opinions on buying used American and Japanese equipment vs the new Chinese models than the particular model ect I will need. Cheers, Roger

Thanks and yes I mis stated the model earlier but the Cowboy 3200, not 341 seems the best candidate for me right now at least budget wise, if I go with a brand new machine. Since I don't anticipate this being a profitable endeavor for me, just another means of wiping a work week off the books and crafting a few gifts, Im not committed to making holsters, but would rather have a little heavier equipment than absolutely necessary, at least to the point I can still stitch lighter +-2oz material. I'm more looking for thoughts / opinions on buying used American and Japanese equipment vs the new Chinese models than the particular model ect I will need. Cheers, Roger

Hello from West Tn. I enjoy collecting vintage domestic sewing machines but that is the extent of my working knowledge of sewing machines and am in the market for a cylinder arm machine for leather work. Holsters would be the the heavier end of things I might expect to make. There is a local industrial sewing machine business that has scaled back from servicing large manufacturers to just selling second hand equipment to individuals and a used Juki 341 complete with a servo motor, speed reducer, and choice of a few different styles of tables can be had for $1300. I was set to purchase one and after about 2 minutes of trying it out on 3 layers of +-1.5 mm leather it made a little racket & jumped time and the shuttle had gone from about a 8:00 position to maybe 6:30 (if needle is @ 9:00). I'm not sure a 341 with it's 3/8" stitch capacity is really up to holster making anyway, should I ever make them, but, that brief experience with the used machine has me considering buying new, like one of the Chinese offerings such as a Cowboy 341 or? which I think claims to sew up to 7/16" thick leather and from all I've read here, owners are happy with the machines and service provided. I am mechanically inclined to learn to repair most anything and if learning and tuning a used machine will save me a nice percentage, as long as it's not more tuning than sewing, I'll probably go that route, especially since I will be servicing whatever machine I end up with myself anyway. If I thought the Juki 341 were built anything like an old Singer 15-91, which is as near bullet proof and reliable as any machine I'm aware of, it'd be a no brainier, but if it's just as likely to be completely worn out and subject to constant break down, I would probably be better off spending double on a new one. Anyone with experience that cares to offer an opinion would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Roger.