how do you decide prices for lessons?

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

This question is directed primarily at those who are "professional" (ie. they do it for a living) leatherworkers. If you have someone come to you who is serious about wanting to make a living doing what you are doing, how do you figure out what to charge them for their education?

Edited October 30, 2007 by Rod and Denise Nikkel

[Beaverslayer]

To be honest with you Rod & Denise, I have no idea how I would figure out what to charge them. I'm not sure I that I would even have the time to do so.

With youe tree making, it is a bit diferent I think than leatherwork in regards to all the diferent things needed to know, and with leatherwork, as we know, there is an abundance right here on this forum for someone to learn from.

To actually teach and charge for that, good question. If you were to take on an apprentice, what would you pay that person in wages? That may be a starting point for what to charge.

Ken

[Dale]

Somewhere around your current shop rate would be a good place to start.

[Randy Cornelius]

I go up to Bill Gomer"s all the time and he charges 100.00 per day. The saddle school is 1500.00 and I spent 14 days there. Some days we worked well into the night.

For someone who looks for one on one lessons with a "Master" I feel 100.00 per day is very reasonable amount to charge.

Randy

[bruce johnson]

Rod and Denise,

A guy I took a carving class from also teaches carving privately at his shop. I think he said he charges somewhere in the neighborhood of $300 a day (an average day's take), and expects about 3 full days. He devotes 100% of the time to the student. During this he does not work on any of his own orders. It would be a little different learning to make trees. They would need to use your equipment. Also it is much like a saddle school. In a couple weeks they may pick up some "how-to's", but dang sure are not going to see it all. I think what to charge really depends on what they expect to learn, how long a time period they have to learn it in, and how much previous experience they have. I dodged Denver yesterday and drove up to Sheridan. I spent part of yesterday and today talking to Luke at Sheridan Leather Outfitters. We talked about the real demand for handmakers of trees. Although giving away trade secrets is a bit of a factor, it is probably not a huge factor. I think making trees should probably be on the order of saddlemaking. If they expect a lot of hands-on training they need to pay totally for that time taken away. If they have experience and want to look over your shoulder and discuss things as you do the work, that takes less time away. If they want to work, and pick up on the job training over a longer period, pay accordingly. My thoughts.

[steveb]

$300 a day for a 8hour day means like what -37.50 an hour?

I'd say that's a fair rate to pay a teacher who is paying undividied

attention to you for a full day..especially a recognized master at their craft.

your not going to find a plumber or electrician teaching you how to repair your own house

for that price thats for sure..lol

I think though to get the most out of the experience of working with a master ,you need to come to the table with some substancial experience and not as a beginner. Someone who knows what they specifically want from an educational opportunity might get more out of working with a master.

in my experience you can get the basics from books, groups and the occaisonal strategically purchased video - subject matter experts are great when you really want to dig in deep to a specific area...my dream is spending a few days with someone who makes luggage and bags and cases. I would really love to gain some of that knowledge hands-on..

someday maybe and certainly something to work towards

steveb

[steve mason]

This is a tough question, I think it depends on the situation, I have and do share knowledge with other makers often. Where we both learn a something from each other, kind of like taking a page out of each others books. In those situations there is no need to charge a fee since I am getting something in return much more valuable than money, Knowledge.

Where and when to charge in another story, is the person just wanting to get a few pieces of advice, if so I don't think I would feel the need to charge. But if the person wants to see and learn the whole process of building a tree (or saddle) or even just wants to learn a specific process of the build, I think the price must be more than your day rate as you are selling this person much more than just your time, you are also selling your own knowledge, experience and your trade etc. Something that you have spent years to learn shouldn't be given away for free. I guess another thing to consider is if you even want to give away or sell your knowledge at all, in some cases I have been taught a particular process from another maker, then do I have the right to give that knowledge away to someone, in those cases I'm not sure if it is mine to give away.

In my own case I have been very fortunate to have been mentored and to have worked for some very talented makers, in some of these cases I developed a friendship with the maker first, then I was offered help with my saddles from them. In another case I worked in a shop for virtually no pay for a year so I could learn, and in another situation I was hired to build saddles for them and was able to learn in the process.

So,,, I still don't know what to charge, I guess it depends on what your relationship is with the individual, their own ability, and what their expectations are, if they just want a little advise or if they want to learn every detailed step of the process, if that's the case then the fee would have to be figured out. I do know that if someone wants to learn every detailed step of how I build something that the fee will be more than just my day rate, they will also have to pay for my knowledge also. What that is worth I don't know. But one thing I do know is that teaching will better your own skills, since when you teach you have to make a conscious effort to think about every step of the process and verbalize it. We can get in the routine of building and we might miss some of the steps because it is a routine job that doesn't require much thought since we have do it many times.

I recall what some other saddle makers have done in these situations, One maker charges you the full price of the saddle and you can build it with him, another charges around $10000 and he will teach you the steps from top to bottom as you build the saddle with him. I don't remember if these are the exact prices but they are close.

I would like to hear all of your opinions on this topic, as I have recently had someone ask for help with their saddles, (someone form this board) I have not had the time to help this person out yet due to schedule conflicts. But when it does come time to help him him out I do not know as yet what to charge or if I need to charge, so I would like to hear your opinions on selling more than just your time, selling your knowledge. After all you have to pay to go to college or a trade school, why should you not have to pay to go to a saddle or tree school.

thanks much

Steve

Edited October 31, 2007 by steve mason

[Regis]

There is more than one issue here but, the original question was what to charge. There is a big difference between teaching something that can be completed in one day vs 2 weeks. Carving an oak leaf can be done several times in one day and only requires very minimal tools and is realistic for dedicated full time teaching and oversight. Making other or larger projects that require multitude of tools and might take days or weeks to complete one is a different story. The more complex a project the more a student needs to practice steps/tools over and over therefore; direct dedicated instruction is not realistic. Dedicated time should receive full hourly charge plus significant premium depending on quality of teaching (not necessarily on teacher's ability/mastery to do the work themselves). In other words there are master makers, master teachers, and occasionaly both. To really learn from a master maker, you need to be pretty skilled to begin with or you can not even appreciate or translate the touch of master to your work. doesn't matter if the object is a fully tooled oak leaf or a strong, perfectly fitted tree or saddle. You have to be pretty knowlegable & skilled to fully gain from a master maker.

I would think that tree making or saddle making is comprised of multiple skills. Some of these skills can/should be learned outside a dedicated instructional saddle/tree making enviornment. In other words you should not be teaching how to use a band saw or a sewing awl in a $100/hour class. But, I would think a $100/hr would be the absolute minimum for fitting, assembly, and finishing skill teaching. That rate would go up if you have a planned course and proven path to teach a student to be competent (not a master).

STORY: About 20 years ago I was in an advanced goldsmith class. Anyone (limited to 3) with $900 could attend the 3 day intensive workshop. One of the students spent most of the time learning how to adjust his torch and handle a Foredom handpeice. Do you think that person left with any advanced skill???

I hope those of you living in areas with guilds and other leather workers fully appreciate that value.

Regis

[Jordan]

just a thought on this, in addition to the quandry of what knowlege and experience is worth, there is also the somewhat intangable issue of the need to pass it on so the art does not disappear. An example is, just try to find some young buck who is able to lay tile like the masters in that field did 20 - 30 years ago. I had a friend sum it up as "In todays mass production world no one takes pride in craftsmanship, they just go to walmart" just had to rant alittle....Jordan

[D.A. Kabatoff]

Thought I'd add my two cents worth...

I agree with Jordan about the idea of keeping knowledge alive. As saddlemaking goes, I am not at the point of feeling like I am qualified to teach someone how to make a complete saddle. When I do reach that point, I think the most important aspect to me will be about being able to trust someone with the knowledge and skills you show them. I'd sure hate to teach some "young buck" the finer points of saddlemaking only to see them not really put their heart and soul into what they are doing, turning out second rate work and telling people they learned saddlemaking from me. In this respect, knowing the student and their intent would be more important to me than anything. While getting paid for my time would certainly be a consideration, I tend to remember the days of eating popcorn for the last few days of the month while waiting for my next paycheck. During those lean years there were a number of people who helped me and I'd like to think if someone in a similar situation approached me with a strong desire to learn and carry on the traditions of skilled craftsmanship, I'd be reasonable in my efforts to help them. I suppose it just adds a couple more considerations on what and how to charge them for your time.

Darc

[steve mason]

Darc;

I think you are right, the knowledge has to be passed on. I think each situation will be different. It seems this subject has quite a few variables to consider.

I was talking to another saddle maker this morning about this, he bought up the point of what does the student charge for his saddles. If we teach him how to build a saddle, will he then turn around and undercut us on price with the saddles he makes. Just another thing to add to this complex isssue.

ps; you build a good enough saddle to teach someone. there are guys who can't hold knife compared to you that have written books and made videos on building saddles. Don't undersell yourself, you do good work.

[unicornwoman]

Steve Mason wrote:I still don't know what to charge, I guess it depends on what your relationship is with the individual, their own ability, and what their expectations are, if they just want a little advise or if they want to learn every detailed step of the process, if that's the case then the fee would have to be figured out.>>

It very much depends on the situation and the relationship. I remember one circumstance where 3 of us specialists were discussing things. I thought we were just discussing things, when one of them suddenly stops and pointed out that she normally charged for this. Considering the other 2 of us had been sharing just as rapidly, I was a bit...well, offended.

There are times when to not answer a question is to risk offense.

On the other hand, I get tired of people expecting me to tell them how to make a certain piece of scale-miniature tack IN DETAIL for free. The kits that I have written have usually taken around 6 months of dedicated time to write, illustrate, and proof. That is AFTER I've spent years (I've been selling scale-miniature tack since 1980) learning and practicing and comparing and searching in strange unrelated places and what-have-you. To come up to me and expect me to give all that away free is...well, rude.

Yet, I have had people get on various forums and act like anyone that didn't give it away free was some sort of ogre.

As for teaching rates when the situation fits, again consider the circumstances. When I taught at Breyerfest, there was only so much negotiating that could be done on "pay". They did NOT pay cash to anyone, though they might provide some of the workshop expenses. They paid in tickets to the show and model horses, including a rather collectible one. I almost always had to sell the model to pay for the trip, so it wasn't a great deal financially. Still, I loved doing it and it was good PR. So, in this case, I took pay in fun and PR.

One of the last workshops Robb Barr taught was here in Fort Worth. It was suppose to be a special deal with 5 different teachers, 1/day. The deal fell through somehow and only 2 students signed up for Robb. Instead of canceling the class, he taught us for 5 days from around 9-5 (less lunch) for the originally contracted price. Did he earn what he should have? NO!!!! Was I grateful that he would be so generous and will I remember this generosity for the rest of my life? YES!!!!

From him I learned the idea that even if you only have 1 student sign-up for a workshop, hold it.

Now, that was a special case. If you are only planning on 1 student, I think you should charge accordingly. That is different than planning for 20 and only having 1 show-up. It's a matter of what your original "promise" was to the student, I guess, though I certainly didn't feel Robb owed us anything. Still appreciate that he did it, though.

[hiloboy]

well what do i think about sharing my craft with other? pay or not. at one point my feelings were share with someone so to help the craft from dieing..handengraving and srimshaw is one of these trades that the computer engraving has hurt..because peaple don't want to put in the time to learn hand type engraving.i have been working at this trade for 20+ years and still learn something new every day..so i took on this kid made tools for him started showing him alot of what i have learned over the year.and better way of doing things.. and one day a friend call me that i have did work for. for many year called to say that the kid was telling him that after working for me for 5 months that he was a master engraver and was trying to cut my line and others thought out town. so that was the last of the last that i showed what to do..bit once never again..

Edited November 1, 2007 by hiloboy

[Jordan]

My fatherlinlaw is a master clock maker, He has offered me an apprenticeship but he said up front it would take at least two years before I could hang out a shingle even then he said I would only be qualified to repair them not know enough to make them. He is 79 and started learning while a pow during battle of britan says he still learns new stuff everyday and it helped that he was a machinist by trade. He has tried the brief training route but ran into the same problems with ex students passing themselves of as master craftsmen, I think he only offered because I am family. ME109 for any interested,shot down twice.

Edited November 1, 2007 by Jordan

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Wow, lots of angles to look at this from.

I have wondered about charging not per day or hour, but with the basis of the price of the final product. For us, that would mean charging the cost of X number of trees. That way the dollar figure would change naturally as the value of the product changed. I think that might also help the student evaluate how quickly he could recoup the cost of his education. How many trees does he have to build to “pay off†the teaching part of his start up cost?

I like Regis’s idea that teaching skill is a consideration. Being able to do and being able to teach are two different things, and if you can’t teach well, you might be charging a lot for the privilege of watching you work. Having a planned course as such makes sense as well. Good teachers plan their lessons ahead of time.

Using the analogy of giving a man a fish versus teaching him to fish, I think the price needs to be higher than just what they would pay picking up a custom ordered item that took you the amount of same time to make. The knowledge is worth something.

I would agree that sharing knowledge, giving out tips and discussing things with other makers is generally a give and take situation. Teaching someone a skill in a “formal teaching setting†is something different, especially if it is not just a hobby or interest, but “tuition†for a career. In the same way, I would also think that written instructions, patterns, or, in our case, the charts with measurements to use, have to be worth something as well. It is one thing to trade a pattern or show something to another worker. It is another to give a person access to everything on your wall, along with instructions on how to modify them as they need to. That also has to be worth something.

But then you would need to subtract the learning you gain by teaching, and the intangible value of giving back to others what you have received. That, as has been pointed out by a few people here, is hard to put a value on.

And choosing who to teach is also a difficult question to consider carefully. Lots to think about…

[rdb]

Rod and Denise...it sure is a pleasure to have you here participating in this forum. I especially like that you actually THINK about things. There ain't enough of that today...

[pepin1948]

All right, I might as well chip in with my experiences.

I work with two groups right now:

1. 4H Leathercraft Club. They have their own supplies, barring any I choose to buy and donate, and the kids pay a yearly fee to be members. I come to meetings and along with other adults, guide the kids with any questions they have. I am probably the most knowledgeable person there (not to brag) and sometimes I will do a "special lesson" topic, for example on how to use a strap cutter. The leaders, including myself are entirely volunteers. I know that I for one do it so the craft does not die out!

2. Leathercraft Club that I started myself at our church. I charge 5.00/kid/class. This covers mostly only the kit price for the week, and we do small things that they can complete in a 2 hr session. Recently the Christian Ed board decided to front me 3 months' worth of fees so the kids didn't have to pay anymore.

Also, when I'm at craft fairs, I will bring small things with me, like bookmarkers, and teach the kids how to stamp or carve them, and I usually charge 2.00 each for those.

While I'm not making much money off these endeavors, to me it is keeping the craft alive by teaching younger generations. If I had a one one one class with a person, I'd likely charge them the cost of materials plus a few bucks (2-3) for me. If I had to get a sitter for my son during the class though, and then had to pay that person, I'd likely charge the student more to cover it.

[gary]

Just my tuppence-worth.

I am currently looking to become fully self-employed when we relocate - I currently do leatherwork one day a week (on average) and it's all bespoke or custom items.

After carrying out market research and profit and loss forecasts for my business plan I have come up with a figure of £70 per day of instruction (I guess that's about $130 - $150 at the moment). That's for an individual; if more turn up then I can afford to reduce the cost (a little) per person. That cost includes the use of all tools, a couple of basic leatherwork techniques pamphlets, tea and coffee and so on. Materials are extra.

I thought that was a bit steep at first but when I looked at the breakdown of time taken resharpening tools, cleaning up the shop, restocking, research, insurances, business rates, heat and light, advertising, pattern-making, postage and having to hold a fairly comprehensive stock of materials, it isn't actually that expensive - I would like to charge more for a bigger financial comfort zone but my current estimate of the market says that's about the right mark for now.

There are options to enhance that part of the business (bed and breakfast, sale of pattern portfolios, middleman for selling tools and leather) that will come later so package deals may be available.

Gary