how do you decide prices for lessons?

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

This question is directed primarily at those who are "professional" (ie. they do it for a living) leatherworkers. If you have someone come to you who is serious about wanting to make a living doing what you are doing, how do you figure out what to charge them for their education?

Edited October 30, 2007 by Rod and Denise Nikkel

[Beaverslayer]

To be honest with you Rod & Denise, I have no idea how I would figure out what to charge them. I'm not sure I that I would even have the time to do so.

With youe tree making, it is a bit diferent I think than leatherwork in regards to all the diferent things needed to know, and with leatherwork, as we know, there is an abundance right here on this forum for someone to learn from.

To actually teach and charge for that, good question. If you were to take on an apprentice, what would you pay that person in wages? That may be a starting point for what to charge.

Ken

[Dale]

Somewhere around your current shop rate would be a good place to start.

[Randy Cornelius]

I go up to Bill Gomer"s all the time and he charges 100.00 per day. The saddle school is 1500.00 and I spent 14 days there. Some days we worked well into the night.

For someone who looks for one on one lessons with a "Master" I feel 100.00 per day is very reasonable amount to charge.

Randy

[bruce johnson]

Rod and Denise,

A guy I took a carving class from also teaches carving privately at his shop. I think he said he charges somewhere in the neighborhood of $300 a day (an average day's take), and expects about 3 full days. He devotes 100% of the time to the student. During this he does not work on any of his own orders. It would be a little different learning to make trees. They would need to use your equipment. Also it is much like a saddle school. In a couple weeks they may pick up some "how-to's", but dang sure are not going to see it all. I think what to charge really depends on what they expect to learn, how long a time period they have to learn it in, and how much previous experience they have. I dodged Denver yesterday and drove up to Sheridan. I spent part of yesterday and today talking to Luke at Sheridan Leather Outfitters. We talked about the real demand for handmakers of trees. Although giving away trade secrets is a bit of a factor, it is probably not a huge factor. I think making trees should probably be on the order of saddlemaking. If they expect a lot of hands-on training they need to pay totally for that time taken away. If they have experience and want to look over your shoulder and discuss things as you do the work, that takes less time away. If they want to work, and pick up on the job training over a longer period, pay accordingly. My thoughts.

[steveb]

$300 a day for a 8hour day means like what -37.50 an hour?

I'd say that's a fair rate to pay a teacher who is paying undividied

attention to you for a full day..especially a recognized master at their craft.

your not going to find a plumber or electrician teaching you how to repair your own house

for that price thats for sure..lol

I think though to get the most out of the experience of working with a master ,you need to come to the table with some substancial experience and not as a beginner. Someone who knows what they specifically want from an educational opportunity might get more out of working with a master.

in my experience you can get the basics from books, groups and the occaisonal strategically purchased video - subject matter experts are great when you really want to dig in deep to a specific area...my dream is spending a few days with someone who makes luggage and bags and cases. I would really love to gain some of that knowledge hands-on..

someday maybe and certainly something to work towards

steveb

[steve mason]

This is a tough question, I think it depends on the situation, I have and do share knowledge with other makers often. Where we both learn a something from each other, kind of like taking a page out of each others books. In those situations there is no need to charge a fee since I am getting something in return much more valuable than money, Knowledge.

Where and when to charge in another story, is the person just wanting to get a few pieces of advice, if so I don't think I would feel the need to charge. But if the person wants to see and learn the whole process of building a tree (or saddle) or even just wants to learn a specific process of the build, I think the price must be more than your day rate as you are selling this person much more than just your time, you are also selling your own knowledge, experience and your trade etc. Something that you have spent years to learn shouldn't be given away for free. I guess another thing to consider is if you even want to give away or sell your knowledge at all, in some cases I have been taught a particular process from another maker, then do I have the right to give that knowledge away to someone, in those cases I'm not sure if it is mine to give away.

In my own case I have been very fortunate to have been mentored and to have worked for some very talented makers, in some of these cases I developed a friendship with the maker first, then I was offered help with my saddles from them. In another case I worked in a shop for virtually no pay for a year so I could learn, and in another situation I was hired to build saddles for them and was able to learn in the process.

So,,, I still don't know what to charge, I guess it depends on what your relationship is with the individual, their own ability, and what their expectations are, if they just want a little advise or if they want to learn every detailed step of the process, if that's the case then the fee would have to be figured out. I do know that if someone wants to learn every detailed step of how I build something that the fee will be more than just my day rate, they will also have to pay for my knowledge also. What that is worth I don't know. But one thing I do know is that teaching will better your own skills, since when you teach you have to make a conscious effort to think about every step of the process and verbalize it. We can get in the routine of building and we might miss some of the steps because it is a routine job that doesn't require much thought since we have do it many times.

I recall what some other saddle makers have done in these situations, One maker charges you the full price of the saddle and you can build it with him, another charges around $10000 and he will teach you the steps from top to bottom as you build the saddle with him. I don't remember if these are the exact prices but they are close.

I would like to hear all of your opinions on this topic, as I have recently had someone ask for help with their saddles, (someone form this board) I have not had the time to help this person out yet due to schedule conflicts. But when it does come time to help him him out I do not know as yet what to charge or if I need to charge, so I would like to hear your opinions on selling more than just your time, selling your knowledge. After all you have to pay to go to college or a trade school, why should you not have to pay to go to a saddle or tree school.

thanks much

Steve

Edited October 31, 2007 by steve mason

[Regis]

There is more than one issue here but, the original question was what to charge. There is a big difference between teaching something that can be completed in one day vs 2 weeks. Carving an oak leaf can be done several times in one day and only requires very minimal tools and is realistic for dedicated full time teaching and oversight. Making other or larger projects that require multitude of tools and might take days or weeks to complete one is a different story. The more complex a project the more a student needs to practice steps/tools over and over therefore; direct dedicated instruction is not realistic. Dedicated time should receive full hourly charge plus significant premium depending on quality of teaching (not necessarily on teacher's ability/mastery to do the work themselves). In other words there are master makers, master teachers, and occasionaly both. To really learn from a master maker, you need to be pretty skilled to begin with or you can not even appreciate or translate the touch of master to your work. doesn't matter if the object is a fully tooled oak leaf or a strong, perfectly fitted tree or saddle. You have to be pretty knowlegable & skilled to fully gain from a master maker.

I would think that tree making or saddle making is comprised of multiple skills. Some of these skills can/should be learned outside a dedicated instructional saddle/tree making enviornment. In other words you should not be teaching how to use a band saw or a sewing awl in a $100/hour class. But, I would think a $100/hr would be the absolute minimum for fitting, assembly, and finishing skill teaching. That rate would go up if you have a planned course and proven path to teach a student to be competent (not a master).

STORY: About 20 years ago I was in an advanced goldsmith class. Anyone (limited to 3) with $900 could attend the 3 day intensive workshop. One of the students spent most of the time learning how to adjust his torch and handle a Foredom handpeice. Do you think that person left with any advanced skill???

I hope those of you living in areas with guilds and other leather workers fully appreciate that value.

Regis

[Jordan]

just a thought on this, in addition to the quandry of what knowlege and experience is worth, there is also the somewhat intangable issue of the need to pass it on so the art does not disappear. An example is, just try to find some young buck who is able to lay tile like the masters in that field did 20 - 30 years ago. I had a friend sum it up as "In todays mass production world no one takes pride in craftsmanship, they just go to walmart" just had to rant alittle....Jordan

[D.A. Kabatoff]

Thought I'd add my two cents worth...

I agree with Jordan about the idea of keeping knowledge alive. As saddlemaking goes, I am not at the point of feeling like I am qualified to teach someone how to make a complete saddle. When I do reach that point, I think the most important aspect to me will be about being able to trust someone with the knowledge and skills you show them. I'd sure hate to teach some "young buck" the finer points of saddlemaking only to see them not really put their heart and soul into what they are doing, turning out second rate work and telling people they learned saddlemaking from me. In this respect, knowing the student and their intent would be more important to me than anything. While getting paid for my time would certainly be a consideration, I tend to remember the days of eating popcorn for the last few days of the month while waiting for my next paycheck. During those lean years there were a number of people who helped me and I'd like to think if someone in a similar situation approached me with a strong desire to learn and carry on the traditions of skilled craftsmanship, I'd be reasonable in my efforts to help them. I suppose it just adds a couple more considerations on what and how to charge them for your time.

Darc