how do you decide prices for lessons?

[steve mason]

Darc;

I think you are right, the knowledge has to be passed on. I think each situation will be different. It seems this subject has quite a few variables to consider.

I was talking to another saddle maker this morning about this, he bought up the point of what does the student charge for his saddles. If we teach him how to build a saddle, will he then turn around and undercut us on price with the saddles he makes. Just another thing to add to this complex isssue.

ps; you build a good enough saddle to teach someone. there are guys who can't hold knife compared to you that have written books and made videos on building saddles. Don't undersell yourself, you do good work.

[unicornwoman]

Steve Mason wrote:I still don't know what to charge, I guess it depends on what your relationship is with the individual, their own ability, and what their expectations are, if they just want a little advise or if they want to learn every detailed step of the process, if that's the case then the fee would have to be figured out.>>

It very much depends on the situation and the relationship. I remember one circumstance where 3 of us specialists were discussing things. I thought we were just discussing things, when one of them suddenly stops and pointed out that she normally charged for this. Considering the other 2 of us had been sharing just as rapidly, I was a bit...well, offended.

There are times when to not answer a question is to risk offense.

On the other hand, I get tired of people expecting me to tell them how to make a certain piece of scale-miniature tack IN DETAIL for free. The kits that I have written have usually taken around 6 months of dedicated time to write, illustrate, and proof. That is AFTER I've spent years (I've been selling scale-miniature tack since 1980) learning and practicing and comparing and searching in strange unrelated places and what-have-you. To come up to me and expect me to give all that away free is...well, rude.

Yet, I have had people get on various forums and act like anyone that didn't give it away free was some sort of ogre.

As for teaching rates when the situation fits, again consider the circumstances. When I taught at Breyerfest, there was only so much negotiating that could be done on "pay". They did NOT pay cash to anyone, though they might provide some of the workshop expenses. They paid in tickets to the show and model horses, including a rather collectible one. I almost always had to sell the model to pay for the trip, so it wasn't a great deal financially. Still, I loved doing it and it was good PR. So, in this case, I took pay in fun and PR.

One of the last workshops Robb Barr taught was here in Fort Worth. It was suppose to be a special deal with 5 different teachers, 1/day. The deal fell through somehow and only 2 students signed up for Robb. Instead of canceling the class, he taught us for 5 days from around 9-5 (less lunch) for the originally contracted price. Did he earn what he should have? NO!!!! Was I grateful that he would be so generous and will I remember this generosity for the rest of my life? YES!!!!

From him I learned the idea that even if you only have 1 student sign-up for a workshop, hold it.

Now, that was a special case. If you are only planning on 1 student, I think you should charge accordingly. That is different than planning for 20 and only having 1 show-up. It's a matter of what your original "promise" was to the student, I guess, though I certainly didn't feel Robb owed us anything. Still appreciate that he did it, though.

[hiloboy]

well what do i think about sharing my craft with other? pay or not. at one point my feelings were share with someone so to help the craft from dieing..handengraving and srimshaw is one of these trades that the computer engraving has hurt..because peaple don't want to put in the time to learn hand type engraving.i have been working at this trade for 20+ years and still learn something new every day..so i took on this kid made tools for him started showing him alot of what i have learned over the year.and better way of doing things.. and one day a friend call me that i have did work for. for many year called to say that the kid was telling him that after working for me for 5 months that he was a master engraver and was trying to cut my line and others thought out town. so that was the last of the last that i showed what to do..bit once never again..

Edited November 1, 2007 by hiloboy

[Jordan]

My fatherlinlaw is a master clock maker, He has offered me an apprenticeship but he said up front it would take at least two years before I could hang out a shingle even then he said I would only be qualified to repair them not know enough to make them. He is 79 and started learning while a pow during battle of britan says he still learns new stuff everyday and it helped that he was a machinist by trade. He has tried the brief training route but ran into the same problems with ex students passing themselves of as master craftsmen, I think he only offered because I am family. ME109 for any interested,shot down twice.

Edited November 1, 2007 by Jordan

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Wow, lots of angles to look at this from.

I have wondered about charging not per day or hour, but with the basis of the price of the final product. For us, that would mean charging the cost of X number of trees. That way the dollar figure would change naturally as the value of the product changed. I think that might also help the student evaluate how quickly he could recoup the cost of his education. How many trees does he have to build to “pay off†the teaching part of his start up cost?

I like Regis’s idea that teaching skill is a consideration. Being able to do and being able to teach are two different things, and if you can’t teach well, you might be charging a lot for the privilege of watching you work. Having a planned course as such makes sense as well. Good teachers plan their lessons ahead of time.

Using the analogy of giving a man a fish versus teaching him to fish, I think the price needs to be higher than just what they would pay picking up a custom ordered item that took you the amount of same time to make. The knowledge is worth something.

I would agree that sharing knowledge, giving out tips and discussing things with other makers is generally a give and take situation. Teaching someone a skill in a “formal teaching setting†is something different, especially if it is not just a hobby or interest, but “tuition†for a career. In the same way, I would also think that written instructions, patterns, or, in our case, the charts with measurements to use, have to be worth something as well. It is one thing to trade a pattern or show something to another worker. It is another to give a person access to everything on your wall, along with instructions on how to modify them as they need to. That also has to be worth something.

But then you would need to subtract the learning you gain by teaching, and the intangible value of giving back to others what you have received. That, as has been pointed out by a few people here, is hard to put a value on.

And choosing who to teach is also a difficult question to consider carefully. Lots to think about…

[rdb]

Rod and Denise...it sure is a pleasure to have you here participating in this forum. I especially like that you actually THINK about things. There ain't enough of that today...

[pepin1948]

All right, I might as well chip in with my experiences.

I work with two groups right now:

1. 4H Leathercraft Club. They have their own supplies, barring any I choose to buy and donate, and the kids pay a yearly fee to be members. I come to meetings and along with other adults, guide the kids with any questions they have. I am probably the most knowledgeable person there (not to brag) and sometimes I will do a "special lesson" topic, for example on how to use a strap cutter. The leaders, including myself are entirely volunteers. I know that I for one do it so the craft does not die out!

2. Leathercraft Club that I started myself at our church. I charge 5.00/kid/class. This covers mostly only the kit price for the week, and we do small things that they can complete in a 2 hr session. Recently the Christian Ed board decided to front me 3 months' worth of fees so the kids didn't have to pay anymore.

Also, when I'm at craft fairs, I will bring small things with me, like bookmarkers, and teach the kids how to stamp or carve them, and I usually charge 2.00 each for those.

While I'm not making much money off these endeavors, to me it is keeping the craft alive by teaching younger generations. If I had a one one one class with a person, I'd likely charge them the cost of materials plus a few bucks (2-3) for me. If I had to get a sitter for my son during the class though, and then had to pay that person, I'd likely charge the student more to cover it.

[gary]

Just my tuppence-worth.

I am currently looking to become fully self-employed when we relocate - I currently do leatherwork one day a week (on average) and it's all bespoke or custom items.

After carrying out market research and profit and loss forecasts for my business plan I have come up with a figure of £70 per day of instruction (I guess that's about $130 - $150 at the moment). That's for an individual; if more turn up then I can afford to reduce the cost (a little) per person. That cost includes the use of all tools, a couple of basic leatherwork techniques pamphlets, tea and coffee and so on. Materials are extra.

I thought that was a bit steep at first but when I looked at the breakdown of time taken resharpening tools, cleaning up the shop, restocking, research, insurances, business rates, heat and light, advertising, pattern-making, postage and having to hold a fairly comprehensive stock of materials, it isn't actually that expensive - I would like to charge more for a bigger financial comfort zone but my current estimate of the market says that's about the right mark for now.

There are options to enhance that part of the business (bed and breakfast, sale of pattern portfolios, middleman for selling tools and leather) that will come later so package deals may be available.

Gary