eBay=feeBay

[Go2Tex]

Pretty funny post about corps losing sight. The people at the top forget what and who is generating the cash and they start walking around experiencing perpetual brain farts! You know there is trouble when their meetings have meetings to discuss who is bringing the dognuts to the next meeting!

I kid you not, we actually had meetings to think of reasons to have weekly staff meetings, which were mandated by some upper level madcow sufferer. Aahh, the good ol' days. Damn, I don't miss 'em!

[UKRay]

Yes Ray this is certainly a open forum and every one has a right chime in well I might not think much of my self but I do every one else,

Any way I think you make good points and right on but for me it still comes down what's fare and right I can't stomach the fact that they are making a killing off those strugling to make ends meat and yes they should make money but i don't know I guess I just don't like big companys they give a great service but with out the heart you know the what's good for you is good for me small time out look, but I must say you are a good writer and a man that knows his mind so with that I say there are too sides to every thing and I value your opinion cheers as you say over there and god speed.

Josh

Y'know Josh, you are a very kind and generous man but I wonder if you are undervaluing yourself and your leathergoods. That hair-on belt you made a few days ago was just as good as most I've seen. The quality of the leather looked excellent and you worked hard at it. In my eyes, that makes it a thing of value.

Would you mind telling me how much you value that belt at? The reason I ask is that Bree made a good point a few weeks back when she talked about people failing to recognise the worth of their work. It would be good to hear what other people feel about this.

I believe eBay is a great place to sell but IMHO people really need to pitch their stuff really well to get the best price for it. if you don't have confidence that your stuff is worth the money then perhaps you won't write a convincing listing. Hence you won't get the price you really want or need.

Yes, this is patently unfair because someone like me who makes their living from writing technical and commercial copy (advertising, marketing and suchlike) obviously has more experience in writing sales copy so their (possibly lower grade stuff) stuff may be inclined to sell faster than if a person who makes really excellent stuff simply lists what they are trying to sell.

Would it help if we all put together some tips and hints for ebay selling and posted them in the marketing section? At the very least it would give a starting point for discussion about the best way to work eBay and come out of it with a profit.

Despite the negative feeling about 'the bay' I don't think this situation is entirely eBay's fault. They have simply followed the trail to the money. By this I mean that the big bucks on eBay are being made by those people who sell thousands of cheap products and allow eBay to scoop a chunk off the top of their profit. eBay are simply led by market forces.

Look at the businesses that do well on eBay - packaging material suppliers make a small fortune - now I wonder why?

I have an eBay shop and it does okay. Nothing even slightly spectacular but enough to make it worthwhile continuing to pay the bills, but I am already looking for more exciting ways of selling my stock online. - I don't know what they are yet but I'm confident they will turn up as people find better ways to use the internet. Just keep looking and let me know if you find 'em before me!

[jbird]

Ray I like chating with you, your man that can see both sides I like that it speeks well of you and thanks for the kind words about my stuff you know I sold that belt for $65 and had oh some $45 bucks in matiarel plus help with mateial from a good member know I loved that belt it was a lot of work my own design and sore hands plus

I had dye and other things may be made $ 15 when all said and done I relize that I am a juinor member of the leather biz so I like to listen and to answer your question I think do tend to under price my goods, you are right

eBay has done what any company would do and I really blame under cut company that buy from china using child labor and so that company can sell a little less and make more money than they should that makes it hard to sell at a fare price you get were I am coming from a man is worth his hire and so are companys doing things the right way well I wondered but I still say that a sight made for and only for crafters for saling there stuff might work a union , in away that's my half cent worth and when it comes to talk I don't value my thought to high.

Josh

P.S some of my stuff might not be spelled right I am on my iphone and there no spell check and I am some what dislexic

Edited January 14, 2009 by jbird

[Go2Tex]

Ray, I can't argue with any of what you just posted. But what got me started on this tirade against Ebay is the underhanded, decptive way that they are trying to grease it to us. They keep saying they made Paypal mandatory to make the transaction more safe for the buyers. Well, that's blatently not true and everyone with a hint of a brain can figure that out pretty darn quick. There are millions of transactions that go on 24 hrs a day and most of them are just fine. So why would they care? Well, maybe their lawyers decided they might be held liable so just to cover their own glutes they come up with this brilliant idea. It just so happens it probably doubled their bottom line. So why not just say so?

Plus, their attitude is just so smarmy, bathing themselves in liberal self righteousness, refusing to allow any auctions that show a real or suspected firearm in them even as props in holsters. Who do they think they are, the Internet Morality Police? I doubt anyone ever shot their eye out with a picture of a BB gun. But you know how stupid these gun grabbing fear mongers are. It's like the school officials sending some kid home from school because he brought a toy gun, a G.I. Joe TOY to school. OH MY GOD!!! THE SKY IS FALLING...WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE. JOHNNY BROUGHT A RUBBER GUN TO SCHOOL!!!!!!!

OH MY GOD. JOHNNY TRIED TO SELL HIS G.I.JOE TOY GUN ON EBAY. AAAAHHHHHRRRRGGGG!!!!!!!!!!! REPORT THAT BLEEPIN' SOB TO THE EBAY POLICE!!!!

And I bet they're the same people that are all for having computers in public libraries with full access to everything that is on the Internet, because wooooooo, that's freedom of expression. OOOHHH, that's like burning books to restrict any information in a sacred library. Yeah, and here's 7 yr old Johnny sitting there gettin' his eyes full of the most vile stuff imaginable but by God he sure isn't out there in the street playing with TOY GUNS!!!!

Whew.... I need a drink. Is it 5 oclock anywhere yet?

Edited January 14, 2009 by Go2Tex

[UKRay]

Josh, I have just run a couple of searches for belts a little like yours - you may find this interesting:

RANGER STYLE BELT:

Dye colors=Black., Brown., Tan, Natural-Oil.

(a.) #6-7, PLAIN (no tooling), Body width choice =1-1/4" or 1-1/2", billets 3/4" or 1".

Single Layer =$100.00 Lined and Machine Stitched = $140.00

...and this was not the only one I found. I'll be honest and say this belt looked very nice indeed but it won't be long before your belts look even better. Get those stitch sizes sorted like Bruce suggested and it will make a world of difference. You could be charging at least $100 for a belt like yours if it were finished well and promoted properly.

You might also want to look around and see if you are paying a bit more than you need to for materials. That sounded like a lot of money to me. Can anyone in the US comment on this please as I'm not in touch with pricing over the water. If I'm right and you can reduce your costs substantially, you can't help but make more money.

I suspect that, as you are just getting into your stride, you may be buying small quantities and paying a premium for it. Is there anyone else you know who would split an order or two with you so you both save money?

Regarding the 'made in China' thing, once again, we are all competing in a global marketplace. There are some fantastic leatherworkers in China - just look at those amazing carvings we have seen from John Barton's guys and Mr Bobocat - and they are all selling on eBay too. Their overheads are less than ours so they can sell more cheaply. We just have to make our goods more desirable and work harder to market to a homeland audience. Sell US made products to an American audience and be proud of your work - it will do you more good than worrying about being undercut by 'sweatshop' labour in China.

Why not make a big thing of Handmade in the USA - I'll bet there are enough patriots that will buy your work on the strength of that alone. Most important of all, never stop trying to improve your work. Every time you improve your skills it will become easier to sell what you make.

Enough - I have rambled on far too long. Good luck Josh, I enjoy watching your leatherwork develop. R.

[Bree]

I agree with Banwell. Those who don't like EBay are free to market their products elsewhere if they think they can do it with less expense. Ebay is a business and they can and will charge whatever the market will bear.

It's called free enterprise. I like it that way. Because just as my customers no NO ENTITLEMENT to cheap prices on my work, EBay sellers and buyers have no entitlement to cheap fees. Ebay will charge as much as it possibly can and still keep people coming back for more. When they stop coming back, fees will drop... I can just about guarantee it. That's the nature of the beast.

[jbird]

Ray I am gratfull for you help and input yes it's true small amounts are killing me and you know I might just try to find some one who will to share a order with me and I am corecting the stitch issue as of yesterday the other thing holding me back is tools you know Douglas asks for instants and stuff like that but it takes time add I will get there when I make up my mind god willing I come through so with more help like what you offered today I will get there best of times and god bless

Josh

[UKRay]

It is currently 10.30pm here Tex and I'm enjoying the company of my friend Jose Cuevera... Cheers!

Okay, ebay are hardly Saints, they are simply a bunch of corporate suits doing what corporate suits do. Trying hard to shaft the rest of the world and retain their life on Easy Street... I don't even think that is up for discussion.

I might take issue with them being undehanded or decptive as they have made it quite clear what they are doing. Okay, they may have been 'economical' with the truth about why they have made payPal mandatory but I don't think there is a law anywhere in the world that says you have to badmouth your own business. Hey, there are plenty of folk all too ready to shout about anything that looks a little sniffy!

Safe transactions - hmmmm. I can see where you are coming from here. I don't have any problems paying cash but I have to say that PayPal has made it very easy and very safe for me to trade with folk in the US.

Why would they care? Good question - I think that comes under the heading of corporate social responsibility. They can't be seen by the community to making a fortune without making it obvious that they are protecting the people who use their service.

Sadly, not everyone is like you, Tex. A lot of people are, frankly, very vulnerable to internet fraud. They don't understand that there are just as many - probably more - wicked people online than there are in their own Main Street. These same poor suckers wouldn't walk around waving a wad of $100 bills but they are quite happy to give their bank details to anyone that asks for it. Those are the folk that benefit from PayPal - not guys like you.

I don't even think it is an issue of liability. They have been taking eBay fraud very seriously for quite a while. I was ripped off by a guy a while back (more than three years ago) but because I paid with PayPal I got all my money back - I can't argue with that kind of protection. If they can make money and still cover my ass I'm happy for them to do it

Firearms issues are another story and, like you, I feel they have gone waaaaay too far. However, as a British citizen living with some of the world's most draconian gun laws, I think you guys still have it pretty good. You still have the right to bear arms don't you? When my license came up for renewal I didn't have a specific reason for owning guns so the British police confiscated all my firearms and wouldn't even give me a receipt. I have been trying to recover them ever since. That was ten years ago.

eBay's attitude is just a reflection of the 'nanny state' that wants to tell us how to live our lives. Short of leaving the country or living outside the law I can't see a way round that.

Enough said, I need another Marguerita...

[Go2Tex]

I agree with Banwell. Those who don't like EBay are free to market their products elsewhere if they think they can do it with less expense. Ebay is a business and they can and will charge whatever the market will bear.

It's called free enterprise. I like it that way. Because just as my customers no NO ENTITLEMENT to cheap prices on my work, EBay sellers and buyers have no entitlement to cheap fees. Ebay will charge as much as it possibly can and still keep people coming back for more. When they stop coming back, fees will drop... I can just about guarantee it. That's the nature of the beast.

Can't argue with any of that either, Bree. But don't you agree that putting a hold on the payment because the seller doesn't sell much, eventhough the seller has a 100% positive feedback for many years is going a bit too far? Now, I can understand the reasoning behind that move, but at the same time they make that the only method of payment that you can accept. So, they put a hold on your funds and charge you $50-$100 for the privilege of using Paypal?

It may be free enterprise, and legal but is it ethical and good business practice? Your customers aren't entitled to cheap prices but they expect good service, don't they? And if they pay a fair price they deserve a fair deal. Ebay is taking advantage of their unique situation in the market place and I believe they are abusing it and lying about it too.

[UKRay]

Tex, I forgot to say how much I like the saddlebags on your website. Is there any chance you might post a few bigger pictures so the rest of the gang can see the high quality work you do? Ray

[Go2Tex]

It is currently 10.30pm here Tex and I'm enjoying the company of my friend Jose Cuevera... Cheers!

Bottoms up to you there, Ray! Mine is Gentleman Jack tonight. Can't afford the Glenlivet everynight. There's a recession on, ya know.

Sadly, not everyone is like you, Tex.

That's the first time anyone has said that to me. Usually they say, "fortunately, not everyone is like you."

I don't even think it is an issue of liability. They have been taking eBay fraud very seriously for quite a while. I was ripped off by a guy a while back (more than three years ago) but because I paid with PayPal I got all my money back - I can't argue with that kind of protection. If they can make money and still cover my ass I'm happy for them to do it

Paypal is great, if you want to pay to use it. The issue I have is the MANDATORY part. A lot of folks are just as afraid of Paypal as they are of any Internet transaction. Don't want to sign up for anything, give out bank info, etc. I work on the trust part. People read my feedback and are free to email me and get as many references as they need. I have a web presence, a real USA address and phone number.

Firearms issues are another story and, like you, I feel they have gone waaaaay too far. However, as a British citizen living with some of the world's most draconian gun laws, I think you guys still have it pretty good. You still have the right to bear arms don't you?

Last time I checked we did. That could change with the new "administration" and the Democrats being in control. I feel the gun grabbers chomping at the bit to start beating the old drumbeat of gun control. God save the Supreme Court!

[Go2Tex]

Tex, I forgot to say how much I like the saddlebags on your website. Is there any chance you might post a few bigger pictures so the rest of the gang can see the high quality work you do? Ray

Funny you should mention it. I just finished a pair. Check it out.

[celticleather]

Funny you should mention it. I just finished a pair. Check it out.

Exquisite work!

[Go2Tex]

I thank you, sir. It was a custom order from a really good repeat customer. She sent me the angora, or as has been suggested, Icelandic Sheep plate, and a picture off the Internet of what she had in mind. I took it from there. It matches her saddle that I made.

It gives me an idea for a set of bags using black angora.

[TrooperChuck]

Josh,

A dislexic friend of mine had this to say about his spelling... "Thomas Jefferson said it was a boring man who spelled his words the same way every time."

I kind of like that phrase.

Go2Tex,

Awesome work!!!

[jbird]

Josh,

A dislexic friend of mine had this to say about his spelling... "Thomas Jefferson said it was a boring man who spelled his words the same way every time."

I kind of like that phrase.

Go2Tex,

Awesome work!!!

I like it good words thanks.

Josh

[SmokinP]

I've sold some miscellaneous items that probably couldn't market anywhere else. Like was said before, a few cents either way didn't matter. But was really an eye opener as to what brings big money and what doesn't. That was kind of an interesting thing to see anyways.

But for high quality stuff or things that have my labor costs, forget it. Your competing with some fella that spends all day in front of the computer in his underwear going between Chinese drop shippers and Ebay. Seems good photographs sell better than quality items. And the fees will eat up any profits until you're working for the same wage as the Chinese prison laborers.

Then you got the items for a dollar and $200.00 shipping. Supposed to be against policy but happens quite a bit. And the folks who have their geek buddies bid on stuff for them. Now the big time sellers who get their 10,000 items listed before yours because they are a "best match". And as a buyer I usually figure I'm paying all the Ebay fees since a lot of sellers do figure a way to get them into their price.

As a buyer I wouldn't buy any high dollar item on Ebay. I use it to find items sometimes but then try to find a direct link to the seller. I want to deal with a real person, not a screen name.

I would encourage anyone trying to sell their work to get a website. I've got a lot of bookmarked websites I got from Leatherworker as well as other special interest sites. When I go looking for top quality gear that's what I turn to. I'll take quite a while looking things over and comparing. Without a website you'll probably get passed over. Doesn't have to be fancy or expensive. The one I made is free through my internet provider and I did it myself.

Another point in how I like to do business. If you've got a page long list of policies that looks like it was written by a lawyer I won't buy from you. If your return policy is any more complicated then "if you got a problem call me and we'll work it out" I'm not buying. If you don't list an addrees, no sale. And in return I will provide you with all my contact information. Kind of like face to face business without being face to face, or toe to toe if need be.

[Bree]

Can't argue with any of that either, Bree. But don't you agree that putting a hold on the payment because the seller doesn't sell much, eventhough the seller has a 100% positive feedback for many years is going a bit too far? Now, I can understand the reasoning behind that move, but at the same time they make that the only method of payment that you can accept. So, they put a hold on your funds and charge you $50-$100 for the privilege of using Paypal?

It may be free enterprise, and legal but is it ethical and good business practice? Your customers aren't entitled to cheap prices but they expect good service, don't they? And if they pay a fair price they deserve a fair deal. Ebay is taking advantage of their unique situation in the market place and I believe they are abusing it and lying about it too.

They put on the holds to protect themselves. Unfortunately, there are many many unscrupuous sellers who will rip you off in a heartbeat if you let them. Almost every bad guy was a good guy right up to the moment that he committed his first crime. EBay doesn't want to be somebody's first victim. I don't blame them. Having been ripped off many times by my own customers, I feel their pain.

OTOH... EBay's security is no picnic for good sellers who have to suffer these restrictions and service delays because of the bad guys. The deal is simple though... you can walk right now. You can find another way to market your products. There was life before EBay and there will be life after EBay.

I suspect that much of the bad feelings has to do with people becoming dependent on EBay as a primary marketing channel. That is a very dangerous thing because it puts your present and future into the hands of an organization that you don't control and can have very little influence over. Bottom line... never rely on EBay. Use them when it is convenient but don't get addicted to EBay marketing heroin. Bad things inevitably follow.

My $.02.

[UKRay]

Your competing with some fella that spends all day in front of the computer in his underwear...

Have you been peeking? LOL

Bottom line... never rely on EBay. Use them when it is convenient but don't get addicted to EBay marketing heroin. Bad things inevitably follow.My $.02.

Hugely good advice, Bree. The more routes to market you can develop the better chance you have of surviving if one goes bad on you.

[Echo4V]

I saw this thread yesterday and read through it. I haven't used ebay in a while but right now I have a couple of things for sale. I sold a junk saddle last night and recieved payment today. Did you know that ebay can decide you're a scammer and put a hold on your money until you ship the item and get positive feedback from the buyer?

I called the contact number and after literally 20 minutes on hold that's what I was told, we think you're a scammer so we won't give you the money until you get positive feedback. WTF??? Guess who just sold his last item on ebay. Now I have to pay for shipping for this saddle out of pocket and wait on the buyer to give me positive feedback before I will get the lousy hundred dollars. It's almost worth it just to call the buyer and cancel the sell then put the saddle back in the corner of the barn, but I know it's not the buyer's fault and their kid probably really wants the saddle.

It should be illegal for them to just take my money like that but I'm sure they've got some kinda fancy pants lawyer that got them around the legalities of it.

[gtwister09]

I don't sell on eBay. However like Bree I never think that it's good to put all your eggs into one basket or to only rely on them. Unfortunately they have changed over time. This could be any number of reasons...corporate greed, governmental policies due to banking or any other number of reasons. Many have tried to get them to change direction over the past few years and return to the "good old days" but to no avail.

I sent several sites to either help you tame the eBay animal or if you were not inclined to do that to seek an alternative. Some of you may be able to use the information in the taming portion to try to contain costs. It may mean that you don't use them for some things and maybe use them for other things. It most likely depends upon your business models and products. Some of you feel extremely strong about it so I would suggest that you develop a plan and migrate away so that it stops. It's your business and you are responsible for it's growth and care. If eBay no longer fits your needs and requirements then vote with your feet if you are so inclined. The best defense against them is education and a plan.

Regards,

Ben

[JLD]

Yes, Yes Yes

I agree it is even better here in Australia as a seller you are not able to leave any feedback but POSITIVE. So if you get a bad payer, purchaser etc you cant respond or even reply to an incorrect feedback.

I received a note from Auctiva stating that they are starting up an online auction site so there might be some competition in the future. I agree the fees are a bit much and they are double diping with Pay Pal but then again no one is forcing me to use them.

As moe people visit my online shop (not ebay) I might not need ebay to "get the name out there"

Anyone interested in starting an online Auction house???? I am prepared to help

Johanna what about a Leatherworker.net auction ?

Johanne

[MADMAX22]

Yes, Yes Yes

I agree it is even better here in Australia as a seller you are not able to leave any feedback but POSITIVE. So if you get a bad payer, purchaser etc you cant respond or even reply to an incorrect feedback.

I received a note from Auctiva stating that they are starting up an online auction site so there might be some competition in the future. I agree the fees are a bit much and they are double diping with Pay Pal but then again no one is forcing me to use them.

As moe people visit my online shop (not ebay) I might not need ebay to "get the name out there"

Anyone interested in starting an online Auction house???? I am prepared to help

Johanna what about a Leatherworker.net auction ?

Johanne

Thats not a bad idea at all. Strictly a leather related only auction house. When people want something made of leather they go to the leather auction.

[jbird]

If you read back a few pages you will see that I suggested this same thing I have been thinking of it for monthes.

Josh

[JSLeathercraft]

Hello all! My first post on here! I've been a lurker for awhile. Anyway, I read through this thread and I wanted to say there was a comment some time back which included some sarcasm about being afraid of money orders. Well, we have had a family tack shop that has sold on Ebay and our own website for over 10 years. We have received 2 counterfeit money orders in our years. Both were for new saddles and were $2500-3000 checks. These were so good, in fact, that the bank didn't even know for weeks. FBI (I think) was involved both times and knew who the offenders were but there is no way to get paid. So, even though there are fees for Paypal it is also a quick way to get your money safely and is comparable to the fees for our merchant account. I do agree though that the fees have gotten a little high for Ebay. But, then again, where else can you get the attention of thousands of people looking for your specific item every day!

Jennifer

J. Stephenson Leathercraft

Tipton, IN