What size punch or what tool would you use for this?

[jcwoman]

I'm still having zero luck with the tiny 2mm punches, so I'm going to come at it from a different direction.  Let me tell you guys what I'm working with and you can tell me what size punch or what kind of punch/pricking tool you would use if this was your project.

I make two products:  The first is a muzzle that has 1/2" wide veg-tan leather straps, in the 3/4 or 6/7 weights (lighter weight for smaller muzzles, heavier for the large ones).  Each muzzle has two straps:  one that has the buckle, and the other one has 5 or 6 holes 1/2" apart that takes the buckle prong. 

The other product is a special purpose dog collar.  Again, 1/2" wide veg-tab strips, just 6/7 weight.  Buckle on one end and the other end has 5 or 6 holes 1/2" apart.

I need to make them in batches of about 20 every month or two, so more than a one-off hobby but not quite enough for big-time manufacturing.  What size would you make the buckle holes, and/or what size punches would you use for this?

 

 

[chuck123wapati]

17 minutes ago, jcwoman said:

I'm still having zero luck with the tiny 2mm punches, so I'm going to come at it from a different direction.  Let me tell you guys what I'm working with and you can tell me what size punch or what kind of punch/pricking tool you would use if this was your project.

I make two products:  The first is a muzzle that has 1/2" wide veg-tan leather straps, in the 3/4 or 6/7 weights (lighter weight for smaller muzzles, heavier for the large ones).  Each muzzle has two straps:  one that has the buckle, and the other one has 5 or 6 holes 1/2" apart that takes the buckle prong. 

The other product is a special purpose dog collar.  Again, 1/2" wide veg-tab strips, just 6/7 weight.  Buckle on one end and the other end has 5 or 6 holes 1/2" apart.

I need to make them in batches of about 20 every month or two, so more than a one-off hobby but not quite enough for big-time manufacturing.  What size would you make the buckle holes, and/or what size punches would you use for this?

 

 

i make my buckle holes the same size as the buckle prong, the prong tip just fits in the hole in the punch.

 If i were having your trouble i would try drilling them with a small bench top drill press and i would make a jig with a prong size pin in it so i could mark and drill the first hole , move the first hole onto the pin and the drill would line up with where the next hole should be. drill and move drill and move. But i would first try it with my punch in the press instead of a drill bit. 

[jcwoman]

Okay, I think I understand.... trying to visualize that.  Do you happen to know of any videos or pictures online where someone has that setup? 

[chuck123wapati]

1 hour ago, jcwoman said:

Okay, I think I understand.... trying to visualize that.  Do you happen to know of any videos or pictures online where someone has that setup? 

i dont but i'll look around. you can also just mark them and drill them too, a jig just makes it a little faster. 

[TomE]

Like Chuck said, match the hole size to the buckle tongue. The tongue varies with buckle style even among 1/2 inch buckles. For tack, it’s recommended to keep the holes as small as possible to maintain strength of the strap. One trick is to punch the holes from the backside - the side that the tongue inserts into - because the hole will be larger on the side you’re working from. For punching holes I like the Osborne spring punch #153 because the tubes have a gradual taper in comparison to rotary punches with shorter tubes. There is a wide range of tube sizes for the spring punch. 

[jcwoman]

Hmm, okay so my issue is that I am using hole punches in the size that matches the buckle prong.  It happens to be tiny, 2mm punches.  I've complained in other threads and don't want to beat a dead horse, but I've been struggling with the punches in that diameter getting impacted after 4 or 5 punches and not clearing themselves like they should.  I've tried cheap punches, Osborne punches, a rotary punch, waxing the punches, a tiny dab of oil inside the punch... nothing is working.  If I ignore the fact that the plugs aren't coming out the clearance hole of the punch and keep going, what I see is that the punch just either makes a round compression on the strap instead of a hole, or if I hammer it hard enough it actually jams the latest plug into my board.  (I've been alternating between a nylon board and a wooden cutting board to try not to dull the punches.). It's something else to pick leather plugs out of my board with my fingernail!  It's been more work getting the punches cleared than actually making holes in my straps.

I love Chuck's idea.  Just trying to visualize it so I can assemble/make the setup for my bench. 

[jcwoman]

Oh, I just found another great video by Weaver.  I think his drill press is larger than what I need, but I love the demonstration of it! 

 

[chuck123wapati]

1 hour ago, jcwoman said:

Oh, I just found another great video by Weaver.  I think his drill press is larger than what I need, but I love the demonstration of it! 

 

yes you can get a much cheaper and smaller bench size press.  and he has a jig that is marked off at the right distances he drills then moves the leathers up to the next mark. you can also use it for other things like burnishing and sanding

[Klara]

I haven't yet used it for leather, but years ago I went into the better brand of home improvement retailer and bought the cheapest drill press they had. So far it has always done the job.

[jcwoman]

Oh, Klara I just noticed your interests include sighthounds. Me too!!

So I'm going to spend a few days researching drill presses.  I don't want cheap junk but don't need anything overkill for my purposes either.  I'm going to mount it to my bench which is in our house, so I'll never use it for woodworking or any other messy or super-loud uses.

[Doc Reaper]

6 minutes ago, jcwoman said:

Oh, Klara I just noticed your interests include sighthounds. Me too!!

So I'm going to spend a few days researching drill presses.  I don't want cheap junk but don't need anything overkill for my purposes either.  I'm going to mount it to my bench which is in our house, so I'll never use it for woodworking or any other messy or super-loud uses.

Overkill it just a tad

[Klara]

11 hours ago, jcwoman said:

I don't want cheap junk

That's why I went to the "better" store and not the one that is famous for selling cheap stuff. My research consisted in asking a friend who makes knives and uses one what I should get to drill straight holes in my spindle whorls and his answer was: Anything. 

Btw, I have a feeling that the drill bits are just as important as the motor, if not more so... And another feeling that there is a huge amount of crappy bits on the market...

(OT: Do you have a sighthound? Which breed and what do you do with him or her?)

Edited August 8, 2022 by Klara

[fredk]

For a real basic stand you can get a stand to take a standard hand-held electric drill. Then you get a faulty / non-working drill at a car boot sale and fit it into the stand. A drill stand costs about £10 to £20 and about £3 to £5 for the non-working drill. You have the advantage of the drill chuck etc. You can change the drill to a working one at any time. It can all be packed away easier too

eg, one of these;

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/134182405632?hash=item1f3de50600:g:vNIAAOSwZlVi39Az

Edited August 8, 2022 by fredk

[Klara]

I startet out with a drill stand (had a drill). It was not much cheaper than a cheap drill press, I had a hard time fitting the drill, then the drill broke, then the stand... With the drill press I haven't had any problems. Btw, it's so heavy I've never seen any need to mount it on the bench. In your place I'd keep it mobile if you do any woodworking  - once you have it, you'll find uses for it.

[JHLeatherwood]

If you're making 20 of these every  other month (120 a year?) and selling them, I'd suggest investing in a cutting die and arbor press from the cheap tools store.

I'll also recommend Sinabroks punches. They make various sizes up to 2.0mm. https://sinabroks.com/products/sinabroks-single-hole-stitching-punch-for-leathercraft-leather-stitching-stitching-chisel-leatherwork-strap-punch-holes-punch?variant=40151345496261 

I'm a hobbyist that makes from patterns (like Tony See/Dieselpunkro) that I print on my laser, tape to the leather, and punch out. Every hole has tape, paper, and leather, and some of the patterns have more than 1,000 holes. Sinabroks are the first punches I've found that never, ever jam. And they stay sharp (it's some kind of magic, I'm sure).

I'd bet Policy Customs or Texas Dies could make you a steel rule die that would cut the end and punch all the holes at once for about $100.

 

 

[chuck123wapati]

6 hours ago, Klara said:

That's why I went to the "better" store and not the one that is famous for selling cheap stuff. My research consisted in asking a friend who makes knives and uses one what I should get to drill straight holes in my spindle whorls and his answer was: Anything. 

Btw, I have a feeling that the drill bits are just as important as the motor, if not more so... And another feeling that there is a huge amount of crappy bits on the market...

(OT: Do you have a sighthound? Which breed and what do you do with him or her?)

yes put money on good drill bits. they keep your drill from dying an early death, and make cleaner holes.

[Doc Reaper]

I like using oval punches, the buckle tounge lays down better, and I have found that round holes (if just big enough for tounge to fit) allow tounge to stand straight, on a dog collar that could be a problem 

[Tequila]

If you’re going to go the drill route here are a couple things to think about.  

Drill Press:  as you know leather will burn so if you use a high speed drill expect the hole to have burn marks.  That’s not always a bad thing the hole is burn (ished), if you don’t want that then drill the hole smaller than your finished hole size then finish off with a punch of the correct size. 

Drill bits:  get quality bits.  The bit is doing all the work, if your bit gets dull it will pull, grab, and make a terrible hole.  When using tiny bits make sure that they are chucked perpendicular to the table, it’s easy for a small bit to chucked at an angle.

Backing:  place your leather on top of a piece of wood.  Since leather is flexible you want to keep the leather flat while you’re drilling so you get a nice round hole. 

[jcwoman]

So many good bits of info and advice!  Thanks all, let me digest this and check out your recommendations for a bit, then come back with more questions maybe. 

[jcwoman]

On 8/8/2022 at 2:50 AM, Klara said:

(OT: Do you have a sighthound? Which breed and what do you do with him or her?)

  I have a couple of retired racing greyhounds.  My second pair, actually.  The darned things are addictive as heck.  I don't really do anything with them other than keep them as beloved pets, but I adore them to the end of the earth.

What do you have?  Galgos?    I used to volunteer for galgo rescue for a couple years.  (I see that you're in France, so that's a possibility, although these days there are a lot of galgos in the USA also.)

I know this, is off topic.... is there a DM function here that things like this should go to?

Edited August 10, 2022 by jcwoman
fixed broken emoji

[Klara]

I think that's best discussed privately, I sent you a message. 

[jcwoman]

On 8/8/2022 at 8:33 AM, JHLeatherwood said:

If you're making 20 of these every  other month (120 a year?) and selling them, I'd suggest investing in a cutting die and arbor press from the cheap tools store.

I'd bet Policy Customs or Texas Dies could make you a steel rule die that would cut the end and punch all the holes at once for about $100.

So I was browsing arbor presses and they seemed similar to something I've already bought.  I have this:  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08C4WWKN6/ref=ppx_od_dt_b_asin_title_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

It doesn't have the pressure rating of an arbor press, but seems to work very much the same.  Do you think it would work with a cutting die?  If not, that's fine.  I'm still just weighing my options.

 

[JHLeatherwood]

3 hours ago, jcwoman said:

So I was browsing arbor presses and they seemed similar to something I've already bought.  I have this:  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08C4WWKN6/ref=ppx_od_dt_b_asin_title_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

It doesn't have the pressure rating of an arbor press, but seems to work very much the same.  Do you think it would work with a cutting die?  If not, that's fine.  I'm still just weighing my options.

 

Very similar concept, but I don't think you'll get the down force you need with that one. I have this one, with a "foot" by the Arbor Press Guy on etsy and I can cut out holsters from 10oz or wallets from 4-6 Oz with a breaker bar. 

https://www.harborfreight.com/1-ton-arbor-press-3552.html

[jcwoman]

I hope you guys don't mind me coming back to add on to this thread some more!  Still trying to find my solution.  Over the weekend I thought I'd try an experiment with a hand drill before I spent money on a drill press.  It didn't go well at all.  The holes ended up looking chewed.  We tried it high speed, low speed, and two layers of leather, all bad.  Here's a picture.  So unless a drill press will have a much better result than a hand held drill, that leaves me with the arbor press and die solution, which I'm going to research a bit more into now.  Couple questions about custom dies:  if they need to be sharpened from time to time, how do you do that?  Are they less inclined to clog with the leather bits because they're much shallower than a punch?  Or would I still have to dig the leather plugs out of them?

[bruce johnson]

That is a typical drill bit hole. No getting around it, drill bits are not knife sharp no matter the quality or speed of feeding - they tear leather. Doc Reaper's advise with an oval punch was dead on, but finding really small oval punches without a steep taper is hard. The old European ones are good but hard to find one that has survived in good condition with the smaller sizes. I've done several thousand round holes with the same Harbor Freight bench top drill press with a mini or maxi tube punch chucked in it. Turn it on the punch won't stick even in wet leather. Use a cheap LDPE cutting board for the punch to go into and cut cleanly. This will work well even in wet skirting leather, At the end of the day, drill the punch into some paraffin wax and few times to lubricate the inside of the tube and prevent corrosion. Be aware and wear eye protection, the punchings fly out in random directions.

As far as your question on dies. Some of the ones I have had through here have screw in punch tubes. They are not any less or more apt to clog than that same tube in a regular punch. I've also had dies with pressed in tubes. when they break its a pain to swap them out. Sharpening the press fit tubes is a little trickier. With a screw in tube you can screw out of the die and into a handle to easily maneuver and watch your angle. Sharpening edges of the cutting die itself is pretty straightfoward with a handheld knife sharpener like an AccuSharp.