ISO Sewing Machine -- a little off topic

[saracita]

Hello, Leatherworkers! 

First off I would like to thank you for your sharing your extensive expertise.  I read @Wizcrafts' sewing machine thread and have been lurking around this message board for weeks. I've definitely learned more about machine mechanics and specs here than anywhere.  I really appreciate the breakdown explaining the various machine types, feeds, walking foot vs add-on foot, etc.  

I'm a professional seamstress with a market opportunity for alterations in Irish Dance dresses.  Think Riverdance.  Modern show/competition costumes are constructed with a particular double pleat skirt, with extensive stiffening materials (sometimes plastic or cardboard), on thick fabrics (duck, velvet, heavy satin, sequin, embroidered). This is to create the distinctive flat, sticking-out skirt.  The skirt-to-bodice seam easily can be in excess of 1/2" thick.  Example of a dress here: https://irishdancedresstoimpress.com/product/dress-11916/

My kids are Irish dancers and since I have done some alterations on their costumes, as well as some friends' costumes (mostly rescues from the damage done by local tailors), I now have many requests.  But I can't get that blasted double-pleated skirt-to-bodice seam through my domestic sewing machine.  Hence, researching industrial machines.  My goodness.  I had no idea there were so many possibilities.  I asked my group of specialty Irish dance seamstresses what they recommend, but no one comes even close to this group's ability to break down the why's and wherefore's of my options.

I'm pretty sure I've narrowed my search to a true walking foot machine with more than 1/2" clearance under the presser foot -- though some of the seamstresses say they are doing fine with high clearance on a regular double-toe foot. Juki was originally recommended to me by a trusted seamstress, but Wiz raves about his Consew machines so much, my horizons have expanded.  :-D 

What I'm hoping for here is maybe to connect with someone with a used machine for sale, a dealer, or any and all advice & guidance the group might be able to offer.  I think I will need to buy something used to get me through the upcoming fall seasons and then save up for an "ideal" machine.

I know most of my particular craft doesn't apply to leatherworking, but the best mechanical information is here.  Perhaps somebody is able to "interpret" my needs, or can point me to a different group that has a closer specialty (but can also explain the mechanical pros and cons).  I'm located in Jacksonville, Florida. 

Thank you very much for reading my message and considering my questions.  

[kgg]

9 hours ago, saracita said:

I'm pretty sure I've narrowed my search to a true walking foot machine with more than 1/2" clearance under the presser foot

With so many thick layers I would suggest a compound feed over the straight walking foot machine so the needle also helps move the material along. This will help prevent the layers from slipping / moving as they are being sewn. Having the under the foot clearance is great to get the various materials and the combined thickness of material in and out from underneath the needle but it is another thing to properly sew them. Most upholstery machines are rated for 3/8 inch. Another factor is the size of needle that will be needed so as not to bend / break while punching through that thickness of material. I would suggest taking a sample of what you want to sew to a dealer and test drive a few machines with the size of thread you are planning on using.

What size and type of thread are you thinking about using, V69, V92, V138 bonded nylon, bonded polyester ???

I would also suggest starting with something along the lines of a Juki 1541 "S" or Juki 1508 or their clones.

Buy Once, Cry Once.

9 hours ago, saracita said:

I'm pretty sure I've narrowed my search to a true walking foot machine with more than 1/2" clearance under the presser foot

Which machine are you looking at?

kgg

[saracita]

3 hours ago, kgg said:

With so many thick layers I would suggest a compound feed over the straight walking foot machine so the needle also helps move the material along. This will help prevent the layers from slipping / moving as they are being sewn.

I am all kinds of confused on feed types.  I thought that all walking foot machines were this type of multi-action moving the fabric through, but you can see now why I'm here asking questions trying to sort it out.  

 

Models recommended to me by other seamstresses who do this kind of work include:

Consew 206RB-5 (this one is in the lead for a walking foot option, there are quite a few available, used, in my area)

Juki DDL-5550N (with claims that it has 5/8" of clearance)

Juki DDL8700

Juki DNU 1541 (which I like but there aren't many around and used prices are high)

Juki DU-1181N 

I'm only considering setups with servo motors (I did manage to learn that much), and I'm not considering ex-school/ex-shop machines.  I'm looking for the ones people got for one big project and thought they would use all the time, only to find how much space they take up in the house.  

Most likely to use a transparent polyester thread or a quilting level thread. Outdoor and sailing threads look like they are beyond what's necessary for this application.

[Buckles]

After reading your description of the dresses and materials, I'm wondering if the machines you are looking at will be able to pass through the machine without bunching and causing huge problems for clearance.

In my self-assessment of skills and knowledge, I'd say that I am hardly beyond novice (if that), but I'm wondering if the dresses aren't going to require something like a Mitsubishi CU-865 (I only mention this model because I have one that I use, there are others)... there are many people here that could comment on this and be much more certain than I am, perhaps they will chime in...

[kgg]

5 hours ago, saracita said:

I am all kinds of confused on feed types.  I thought that all walking foot machines were this type of multi-action moving the fabric through, but you can see now why I'm here asking questions trying to sort it out.  

The three most common types of how material is feed through i) Drop feed --- feed dog moves material mostly used in domestic and garment sewing machines. ii) Walking foot --- feed dog and presser foot moves material iii) feed dog, presser foot and needle moves material

Presser foot lift on a lot of industrial machines has two dimensions. One is when you use the presser foot lift lever by hand and the other is when a machine can have it raised by hand or by a foot/knee/lift cylinder lever. The Juki 1541 is a compound feed machine which has a lever lift of 9mm (3/8") and a knee lift of 16mm (5/8"). The max sewing thickness is ~9mm (3/8"). I have sewn much thicker on few occasions.  I wouldn't do it on a regular bases. The Juki 1181N is a less capable walking foot machine which has a lever lift of 5.5mm (~1/4") and a knee lift of 15mm (short 5/8"). The max sewing thickness would be about 1/4".

I have both machines and the 1541 hates thin stuff while the 1181N can't really handle thick / tough stuff. A couple of good video to look at that may help: 1) Juki DNU-1541S sewing light, medium, and heavy fabric (www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JES-2I7h3o&t=3s) and Juki DU-1181N sewing light, medium, and heavy fabrics ( www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKJuKTrjsbw&t=302s ).

The suggestion of using a cylinder bed machine maybe a better solution then a flatbed machine depending on how the skirt is attached to the upper part of the dress. I would recommend a older Juki LS-341 or the newer Juki LS -1341 or similar clones with a flatbed attachment.

5 hours ago, saracita said:

Juki DNU 1541 (which I like but there aren't many around and used prices are high)

When you buy a brand name machine they will always hold there value better to that of a similar used clone machine and will be easier to sell when you upgrade. Think of a used Honda versus a used Lada. Juki is typically what the clones are copied after.

Keep your setup as simple as possible. Machine, servo motor, table. The more fancy stitches and other doodads the machine has the more expensive to repair if parts are available particularly control boards later down the road.  

kgg

 

[saracita]

22 hours ago, Buckles said:

After reading your description of the dresses and materials, I'm wondering if the machines you are looking at will be able to pass through the machine without bunching and causing huge problems for clearance.

Well, the machines the other seamstresses recommend are models that they use, so I presume they have been adequate for their work.  I probably really am looking at 3/8" of thickness when it's all pressed together, but 5/8" needed to get it all arranged under the presser foot. 

@kgg, thanks, this is helpful information and thank you for the links as well.  I don't know anything about cylinder bed machines, other than I thought they were meant for curved seams, which these dresses aren't -- it's all flat sewing work, just thick.  You would attach the skirt before the zipper, so you're looking at a long seam that runs from the back opening, across the front, to the other back seam, all laid flat -- but with a lot of folds of thickness under the flat seam.  I sew everything else (sleeves, side seams, darts, etc.) on an old Riccar, but it doesn't have the punching power or clearance for this thick bodice-to-skirt seam.  Definitely not looking for bells or whistles.  I would probably use this "new" machine solely for tailoring that bodice/skirt seam and all I need to do is a basic, straight stitch.  Backstitch would be nice, but not necessary.  

[kgg]

16 minutes ago, saracita said:

You would attach the skirt before the zipper, so you're looking at a long seam that runs from the back opening, across the front, to the other back seam, all laid flat -- but with a lot of folds of thickness under the flat seam. 

I would go with a flatbed then. As far as the thread I have no idea as to what or how strong quilting threads are or how they relate to bonded nylon or bonded polyester sizing. Thread and needle wise I would probably use a V92 bonded polyester thread with a number 20 needle as a starting point to help prevent the needle from deflecting / bending as it goes through the various folds. The machine I would suggest would be a Juki DNU 1541 "S" not the Juki  DNU 1541 as the safety clutch feature denoted by the "S" will save you on repair costs when you jam the machine up or similar clone but I don't think you would be pleased with the results of a Juki 1181N or clone. I disregarded the DDL machines you listed as they have to many doodads / electronics and are high speed garment machines. From your list the Consew 206 RB-5, I think made in China, would be a second choice to Juki 1541( made in Japan).

A good reference for selecting needle sizes for various threads sizes can be found here: www.tolindsewmach.com/thread-chart.html.

kgg

 

[saracita]

@kgg Thank you ever so much. 

2 hours ago, kgg said:

I disregarded the DDL machines you listed as they have to many doodads / electronics and are high speed garment machines.

This is especially helpful, I had thought maybe those models might be too much in the high-speed category for what I really want, but I'm still trying to confirm whether what a *think* I've learned is actually correct. Great information to be found here, I appreciate it. 

[saracita]

Just wanted to stop by to say thank you for helping me sort machine options.  I got a Consew 226R-1 from a local sail maker and I think it will be fully adequate for my needs.  

[ChipperBags]

I was recently looking at a 226r for leatherwork and while the machine is AWESOME, in my opinion, I had to pass due to the situation the vendor is in.  He is just preoccupied with a building situation and had no time to put it together, not let me put it together as I am quite capable of setting up industrial tables, motors, etc.

But, I learned everything I could about the 226.  Bobbin winding, threading, sweet spot for release, stitch length setting… all that you need.

From all of that I think it’s a great machine and when I turned it by hand at the shop, it was as smooth as could!

I just started sewing, but in my opinion you not only need a triple feed foot (compound, needle feed), you picked a very good machine for the job.

As a matter of fact, the Sailrite Fabricator is based on the 226.  As well as some of the Jukis.

And those Japan machines will last forever.

look on YouTube for Consew 226 and watch the “Everything you need to know” video on the 226.

You will be glad you did!

Chip from

CHIPPER BAGS