Reason to appreciate the group we have here...

[Rayban]

I'm wanting to make a sap and slapjack for someone who collects them.

I found a web site of a person who makes them as well as other leather items. I can see that he tries to make a living off his leather item sales, but compared to the talent on this forum, I would say his work is ave.......at best.

Anyway, I can see that making a sap is not very difficult, in fact, they look pretty darn easy...I'm just looking for some basic do's and don'ts about them.

I emailed him to ask if he would walk me through the process of making one, his reply to me was....."buy mine and resell it"

Now, I'm sure I deserve that for something I've done in the past....or maybe as recently as last night.....but it got me to thinking of the contrast of that reply, and the sharing of information and the generosity I see on this forum.

[K-Man]

I had a similar experience to yours when trying to put together a mechanic's belt. All I needed at the time was the two-prong "buckle" piece. I found a place on line who made the belts, called the guy, and asked for a source for the buckle. His response was, "I've got nearly 5,000 of them." I asked if he would sell me a few. His response, "Buy the belt and cut them out." Typical response I sometimes come across. So I bought a mechanic's belt, found a machinist local to me, and had him make me up a bunch of them. So if any of you need a mechanic's belt buckle, I've got a few.

[Rayban]

What they look like? Picture please?

[K-Man]

They're a two-prong piece that's inserted between the leather. I'll try and get a picture of them posted tomorrow.

[Johanna]

90% of the time when I call or write to someone and ask if we can have permission to use something of theirs here, they say "Yes!" and are tickled to be asked, and that other people noticed that they are trying to do the best work they can. Collectively, there are hundreds of years of leatherworking experience here. People take the time out of their busy day to answer questions and exchange ideas. Some folks will go way out of their way to help someone else. I don't know what kind of magic there is here at LW, but I like it. Whoever sprinkles the fairy dust, thank you!

Johanna

[Go2Tex]

.................. I don't know what kind of magic there is here at LW, but I like it. Whoever sprinkles the fairy dust, thank you!

Johanna

OK, I confess. It's me. .... But from now on, I'm gonna start charging for it! Hey, if Ebay can jack up their fees, why not a magic dust fairy, eh?

[K-Man]

Here's a couple of pics of the "buckle" piece itself, and with it in place (not my belt):

[Greybeard]

now that is intresting

[wildrose]

I have found at most festivals that when I approach other leatherworkers, they are extremely close mouthed about their work and how they accomplish certain effects/pieces. Personally, I do the opposite. When someone asks me how I made something, I'm happy to pull out some tools and demonstrate. In fact, I usually bring some stamps for kids to work with while I'm set up at an event. If we don't educate others, how will the craft continue?

[Johanna]

If we don't educate the public, how are we going to get the prices for our work that we deserve? When I was introduced to Leather Land, I didn't know leather could be tooled, or how to tell leather from vinyl. And I was managing a fabrics and notions store!

Johanna

[Rayban]

On the other side of the coin.....

I just got off the phone with Chas Clements of Aurora CO. who has been working with leather for 45 years, and he was gracious and kind, and answered all my questions and then some.

What a difference a day makes!

R

[HarryB]

Along these same lines, after looking at their website I e-mailed a pool cue company yesterday asking if they carried woods in different sizes than those shown on their site. Everything they offered was 16" long for pool cue handles and I was asking for "odd" size pieces 4 to 6" long for knife handles but too short for their normal use. I got a very curt e-mail stating somethin like they were in business to make money it it seemed that I was looking for scraps that I could get for a little of nothing and was told that I was wasting their time even asking! Guess what? If I order $100 or $10,000 worth of wood, it won't be from them. And I told them so but not as nicely as this! I understand that we don't all give out all of our "trade secrets" but you can say no politely and not be an ass about it. Just ranting.

[Go2Tex]

Along these same lines, after looking at their website I e-mailed a pool cue company yesterday asking if they carried woods in different sizes than those shown on their site. Everything they offered was 16" long for pool cue handles and I was asking for "odd" size pieces 4 to 6" long for knife handles but too short for their normal use. I got a very curt e-mail stating somethin like they were in business to make money it it seemed that I was looking for scraps that I could get for a little of nothing and was told that I was wasting their time even asking! Guess what? If I order $100 or $10,000 worth of wood, it won't be from them. And I told them so but not as nicely as this! I understand that we don't all give out all of our "trade secrets" but you can say no politely and not be an ass about it. Just ranting.

Just curious, but why pool cues? Is it the type of wood they use? Seems you could just invest in a lathe and turn your own. I don't know, just asking.

[HarryB]

Just curious, but why pool cues? Is it the type of wood they use? Seems you could just invest in a lathe and turn your own. I don't know, just asking.

No, the pool cue company happened to carry some very exotic woods but they were all 1 1/2" square by 16" long. I need some pieces more like 2" wide and 4" - 6" long that I can cut slab handles out of. I was willing to buy pieces that size if they had them after cutting their other pieces.

[JohnBarton]

On the other side of the coin.....

I just got off the phone with Chas Clements of Aurora CO. who has been working with leather for 45 years, and he was gracious and kind, and answered all my questions and then some.

What a difference a day makes!

R

Chas is THE MAN. I had another path I could take in life then it would have been to apprentice under Chas Clements. We did some work together once upon a time and everything he tooled for our cases sold in less than one hour of putting it up for sale with no haggling.

He has stamps that go back a hundred years, custom punches from half a century ago, and the knowledge and artistry to use them in just the right way.

He pretty much just does jacks and saps these days due to an injury on his hand. I am so glad that you were able to get help from him!!!

[Rayban]

Chas is THE MAN. I had another path I could take in life then it would have been to apprentice under Chas Clements. We did some work together once upon a time and everything he tooled for our cases sold in less than one hour of putting it up for sale with no haggling.

He has stamps that go back a hundred years, custom punches from half a century ago, and the knowledge and artistry to use them in just the right way.

He pretty much just does jacks and saps these days due to an injury on his hand. I am so glad that you were able to get help from him!!!

Chas seems like a very nice man...I usually avoid the Denver area when we go out to visit our son....he lives in Monument....but I will certainly try to stop by to meet him.

[dave3]

So How did this work out for you? Is making a sap/blackjack as easy as it seems?

[Rayban]

So How did this work out for you? Is making a sap/blackjack as easy as it seems?

Yes Dave, I've only made a couple and the collector I made them for seemed to be quite satisfied with them.

The most time consuming part of it was packing the bird shot into it before stitching it closed.

But they are quite easy to make.

[Windom Leather]

I don't want to sound like an idiot but I have to ask. What are those, and what are they used for?

[Rayban]

I don't want to sound like an idiot but I have to ask. What are those, and what are they used for?

They're called "saps", used primarily for close urban combat before guns became the weapon of choice.

Cops used to carry them to subdue unruly bad guys.

I understand they are now illegal to carry in most states.

As I understand it, when they are filled with bird shot they are called saps, when filled with something solid, like lead, they are called blackjacks......they can also load the handle part with some spring steel....ouch!

Note: the night I made that one I was showing it to the wife and started massaging her shoulders with it, she liked....scored some serious points that night!

Edited July 31, 2009 by Rayban

[Windom Leather]

Thank you for the clarification. Ill bet that hurt gettin hit by one of those. Btw nice lookin job.

[nobearsyet]

Along these lines, I'm going to jump back quite a few years to when my Dad was first teaching me some of the stuff I know now. This was long before the internet was around to the masses. Me and Dad (as he insisted I go to every gun show, craft fair, etc. with him, much to an 8yo. boy's dismay) where at a gun show trying to hock some of his western holsters with very little success. Late on Sunday afternoon (the last day of the show) a guy walks up to my Dad and asks him why his "junk" is worth more than the stuff the guy down the way has on his table. My Dad looks at him and says, 1. my stuff is all made in America not the Taiwan stuff the guy down the way has, 2. I make mine by hand, I don't buy it out of a catalog like that guy, 3. I have to eat too, and there's so many hours in a day and I can only get so much done, so I can only make so many, but if you like I can give you a plain belt to put it on if you think my pricing is too high. (Dad never told him that everybody who bought a holster got a belt for free) Well, the guy bought my Dad's holster, and several more after that as they became real good friends, and one day (about 5 years later) when my Dad was getting along in years asked my Dad how he did it (as far as the methods and methodology of how he went about building the stuff he made) and my Dad was more than happy to tell him, even gave him a couple of lessons. My Dad passed that following spring, and I am going to say that now I have decided (after a 5 or so year hiatus from doing anything with leather to pursue other interests like blacksmithing, woodworking, etc.) to come back to leatherwork, albeit only as a hobby and side business at the moment, and being as I have decided that holsters have just become, well, boring a lot of the time and that I want to keep trying new things I am very glad I found my way over here as I have discovered that most of what Dad and the other people I have worked with taught me has kind of been forgotten, a lot of it anyways, and that the folks around here are more than glad to offer up the same sorts of assistance and advice provided to me upon request. And with very little ribbing and prodding. and Thank you all very much.

[Rayban]

Neat stroy No Bears....you must have all your Dad's tools?? The good stuff, right?

My kidz haven't shown any interest in doing the work, but they think the things I do are pretty cool.

[nobearsyet]

After the old man died my Mom needed money to d osome important stuff with, like eat, pay the rent, etc. so a lot of his old tools got sold, but I do have all of the ones that didn't like his round knife, strap cutter, etc. and my Dad always told me to buy the best tools you can afford now and you won't have to buy them again later.

[AZ09]

Yes Dave, I've only made a couple and the collector I made them for seemed to be quite satisfied with them.

The most time consuming part of it was packing the bird shot into it before stitching it closed.

But they are quite easy to make.

Rayban.

Nice work.. What did you fill the handle with? bird shot also. Is the bottom flat or rounded as the top.

Peace.

Tal~ "AZ09"