Singer 29-4 Needle Plate / Threading

[shoeleatherexpress]

Thankful to have been accepted into the Leatherworker forum.  This is my first post and a question for all the seasoned leatherwork sewing machine users.  I picked up this 1912 Singer 29-4 a few weeks ago and have it just about ready for use.  While I do have a copy of the original users manual, I'm perplexed at what little info I can find about the needle plate.  There is a hole just next to the needle passage hole (see image). Does the bobbin thread pass upward through this hole before commencing sewing?  The Singer manual only states to lay the thread as shown and zero mention of this hole.  I have seen videos online where the bobbin thread appears to come up and out of this hole.  Any input would be appreciated.

[Wizcrafts]

There are always two holes on each end of the patcher needle plate. The centered hole closest to the edge is for the needle and bobbin thread. The offset holes are for the spring loaded stud that locks the plate in position. So, yes, bring the bobbin thread up through the needle hole. If you don't, the needle will bring it up when you begin sewing.

[shoeleatherexpress]

Wizcrafts, thanks for the quick reply.  So what I'm hearing, is that whether the thread is laying over the side, or up through the needle hole, I should get the same result?

[Wizcrafts]

1 hour ago, shoeleatherexpress said:

Wizcrafts, thanks for the quick reply.  So what I'm hearing, is that whether the thread is laying over the side, or up through the needle hole, I should get the same result?

When you load a new bobbin into the shuttle, push the thread up through the hole before you start sewing. Leaving the long bobbin thread tail under the plate invites getting it jammed under the shuttle.

[shoeleatherexpress]

Understood, thank you.  Also, regarding needles, plenty of info on gauge, but what is the ideal overall length?  (Assuming I'm landing it against the 2nd set screw and not beyond).

[Wizcrafts]

29 minutes ago, shoeleatherexpress said:

Also, regarding needles, plenty of info on gauge, but what is the ideal overall length?

About 1.75 inches. Originally, Singer produced System 29x3 and x4 needles for the patchers. Those are obsolete now. Use System 135x16 leather point, or 135x17 round point. The only difference is that modern needles have a cutout scarf over the eye on one side.

[shoeleatherexpress]

Wizcrafts, per your needle guidance.  Will these needles (135x16 leather point and 135x17 round point) be acceptable with #138 T135 Bonded Nylon Thread?  I saw this thread recommended a few times but know there are other options, just making sure I'm "pairing" correctly.

[Wizcrafts]

1 hour ago, shoeleatherexpress said:

Wizcrafts, per your needle guidance.  Will these needles (135x16 leather point and 135x17 round point) be acceptable with #138 T135 Bonded Nylon Thread?  I saw this thread recommended a few times but know there are other options, just making sure I'm "pairing" correctly.

135x16 and 135x17 are needle "systems," not sizes. A system designates the geometry of the needle. These two are the same geometry until you get to the area under the eye  The x16 will have some kind of slicing, or diamond, or triangle point. The x17 has a rounded sharp point.

When you ask if a needle will be acceptable with a size of thread, you are really asking what needle "size" do I use with size X thread? In your case, to sew leather with #138 bonded thread, you need a #23 leather point needle. #23 is the US needle size numbering system. The Metric equivalent is number 160.

You need to know that your 100+ year old small bobbin patcher was not built with that size or type of thread in mind. There was no bonded nylon thread back them. The patchers used linen thread made in Ireland, by companies like Barbour. It is still available to this day from select dealers in various numbers of cords twisted and glazed together. The big difference between linen thread and nylon thread is the flexibility. Linen thread is very flexible, while nylon isn't as flexible for the same diameter. Thus, in 1920, a shoe repairman might load a bobbin with 3 cord linen thread and it would probably sew properly. Today, if you load a patcher bobbin with #138 bonded nylon, you'll have to crank up the top tension, reduce the bobbin tension and crank down the foot pressure screw on the flat spring along the back. You will over-stress the century old machine and may throw it out of time if any of the driving gears are loose or worn down. There will also be more stress on the feed motion came and ring as it pulls the leather against this heavy thread.

So, in answer to the question about if it's acceptable to use #138 thread in your machine, I'd say only in an emergency, or only for short projects that aren't more than 3/16 inch thick. I wouldn't sew 1/4 inch thick pancake holsters on that machine if you intend to keep using it for other jobs. It is made to patch rips and loose seams on shoes and boots. I use mine to sew embroidered patches onto vests and jackets. I use #69 bonded thread, with a #18 needle, in my Singer 29k71, which is a small bobbin machine like yours, but much newer. Once in a great while I will up it to #92 thread, top and bottom and use a #19 needle.

[shoeleatherexpress]

Wizcrafts, thanks for setting me straight on this topic, the guidance and information is much appreciated.  I was able to hit Hobby Lobby this evening and picked up some #69 bonded thread and a pack of #18 needles.  I'll thread the machine and see what happens after some tests.

[shoeleatherexpress]

Wzcrafts, a picture is worth 1000 words, so here are a few that will clearly show what I'm dealing with.  I threaded the machine tonight with #69 bonded thread (top and bottom) and mounted a #18 needle, hoping to get the top thread to pick up the bottom thread. Well....it did not pick up.  After looking at each shuttle closely, I discovered the one I was using has a worn point.  If you look at the marked up images you will see what I am referring to.  My next plan is to remove a good spring from a bad point shuttle and place it on the best of the three and see what happens next.  Unfortunately I only have these three shuttles which came with the machine and will need to purchase some new virgin ones.