Singer 29-4 Needle Plate / Threading

[shoeleatherexpress]

Thankful to have been accepted into the Leatherworker forum.  This is my first post and a question for all the seasoned leatherwork sewing machine users.  I picked up this 1912 Singer 29-4 a few weeks ago and have it just about ready for use.  While I do have a copy of the original users manual, I'm perplexed at what little info I can find about the needle plate.  There is a hole just next to the needle passage hole (see image). Does the bobbin thread pass upward through this hole before commencing sewing?  The Singer manual only states to lay the thread as shown and zero mention of this hole.  I have seen videos online where the bobbin thread appears to come up and out of this hole.  Any input would be appreciated.

[Wizcrafts]

There are always two holes on each end of the patcher needle plate. The centered hole closest to the edge is for the needle and bobbin thread. The offset holes are for the spring loaded stud that locks the plate in position. So, yes, bring the bobbin thread up through the needle hole. If you don't, the needle will bring it up when you begin sewing.

[shoeleatherexpress]

Wizcrafts, thanks for the quick reply.  So what I'm hearing, is that whether the thread is laying over the side, or up through the needle hole, I should get the same result?

[Wizcrafts]

1 hour ago, shoeleatherexpress said:

Wizcrafts, thanks for the quick reply.  So what I'm hearing, is that whether the thread is laying over the side, or up through the needle hole, I should get the same result?

When you load a new bobbin into the shuttle, push the thread up through the hole before you start sewing. Leaving the long bobbin thread tail under the plate invites getting it jammed under the shuttle.

[shoeleatherexpress]

Understood, thank you.  Also, regarding needles, plenty of info on gauge, but what is the ideal overall length?  (Assuming I'm landing it against the 2nd set screw and not beyond).

[Wizcrafts]

29 minutes ago, shoeleatherexpress said:

Also, regarding needles, plenty of info on gauge, but what is the ideal overall length?

About 1.75 inches. Originally, Singer produced System 29x3 and x4 needles for the patchers. Those are obsolete now. Use System 135x16 leather point, or 135x17 round point. The only difference is that modern needles have a cutout scarf over the eye on one side.

[shoeleatherexpress]

Wizcrafts, per your needle guidance.  Will these needles (135x16 leather point and 135x17 round point) be acceptable with #138 T135 Bonded Nylon Thread?  I saw this thread recommended a few times but know there are other options, just making sure I'm "pairing" correctly.

[Wizcrafts]

1 hour ago, shoeleatherexpress said:

Wizcrafts, per your needle guidance.  Will these needles (135x16 leather point and 135x17 round point) be acceptable with #138 T135 Bonded Nylon Thread?  I saw this thread recommended a few times but know there are other options, just making sure I'm "pairing" correctly.

135x16 and 135x17 are needle "systems," not sizes. A system designates the geometry of the needle. These two are the same geometry until you get to the area under the eye  The x16 will have some kind of slicing, or diamond, or triangle point. The x17 has a rounded sharp point.

When you ask if a needle will be acceptable with a size of thread, you are really asking what needle "size" do I use with size X thread? In your case, to sew leather with #138 bonded thread, you need a #23 leather point needle. #23 is the US needle size numbering system. The Metric equivalent is number 160.

You need to know that your 100+ year old small bobbin patcher was not built with that size or type of thread in mind. There was no bonded nylon thread back them. The patchers used linen thread made in Ireland, by companies like Barbour. It is still available to this day from select dealers in various numbers of cords twisted and glazed together. The big difference between linen thread and nylon thread is the flexibility. Linen thread is very flexible, while nylon isn't as flexible for the same diameter. Thus, in 1920, a shoe repairman might load a bobbin with 3 cord linen thread and it would probably sew properly. Today, if you load a patcher bobbin with #138 bonded nylon, you'll have to crank up the top tension, reduce the bobbin tension and crank down the foot pressure screw on the flat spring along the back. You will over-stress the century old machine and may throw it out of time if any of the driving gears are loose or worn down. There will also be more stress on the feed motion came and ring as it pulls the leather against this heavy thread.

So, in answer to the question about if it's acceptable to use #138 thread in your machine, I'd say only in an emergency, or only for short projects that aren't more than 3/16 inch thick. I wouldn't sew 1/4 inch thick pancake holsters on that machine if you intend to keep using it for other jobs. It is made to patch rips and loose seams on shoes and boots. I use mine to sew embroidered patches onto vests and jackets. I use #69 bonded thread, with a #18 needle, in my Singer 29k71, which is a small bobbin machine like yours, but much newer. Once in a great while I will up it to #92 thread, top and bottom and use a #19 needle.

[shoeleatherexpress]

Wizcrafts, thanks for setting me straight on this topic, the guidance and information is much appreciated.  I was able to hit Hobby Lobby this evening and picked up some #69 bonded thread and a pack of #18 needles.  I'll thread the machine and see what happens after some tests.

[shoeleatherexpress]

Wzcrafts, a picture is worth 1000 words, so here are a few that will clearly show what I'm dealing with.  I threaded the machine tonight with #69 bonded thread (top and bottom) and mounted a #18 needle, hoping to get the top thread to pick up the bottom thread. Well....it did not pick up.  After looking at each shuttle closely, I discovered the one I was using has a worn point.  If you look at the marked up images you will see what I am referring to.  My next plan is to remove a good spring from a bad point shuttle and place it on the best of the three and see what happens next.  Unfortunately I only have these three shuttles which came with the machine and will need to purchase some new virgin ones.

[shoeleatherexpress]

Also, some images of the shuttle mounting area.

[Wizcrafts]

Wiggle the shuttle driver and see how much wiggle room there is. The less the free motion, the better the timing will be as you sew.

[shoeleatherexpress]

Wizcrafts, the shuttle driver has a measured play of 1/16" back and forth.  Hopefully this is acceptable.

[Wizcrafts]

1 hour ago, shoeleatherexpress said:

Wizcrafts, the shuttle driver has a measured play of 1/16" back and forth.  Hopefully this is acceptable.

Yep, that's acceptable. Now, test the play in the presser foot, with the stitch length regulator all the way down to the raised foot. A pristine machine will barely have any slop in the foot.

[shoeleatherexpress]

Wizcrafts, I'll check this in a day or so.  I assume the "slop" I'm looking for would be lateral in any direction of the foot?  Also, I have seen that some feet have toes that are equal length, and others with a long toe and shorter one, reason?

[Wizcrafts]

2 hours ago, shoeleatherexpress said:

I assume the "slop" I'm looking for would be lateral in any direction of the foot? 

The free play I referred to is forward and backward. This affects the stitch length.Sideways motion affects the tracking, which you can adjust for as you sew. You want the least free play when you push or pull on the raised foot, forward and backward. Even 1/32 inch will cause a loss of maximum stitch length. Bear in mind that the stitches get shorted at greater thicknesses and, it is harder to move the stack. Slop in the presser foot will definitely lead to extra short stitches at 1/4 inch thickness.

[shoeleatherexpress]

Wizcrafts, I was able to measure the foot play front to back and wound up with a 1/32" measurement.  Luckily, the bottom thread WAS picked up after I placed the better bobbin in place.  See initial images of a sew on 3/16" soft deer hide.

[shoeleatherexpress]

Wizcrafts.  After further review I see I was wrong about the thread being picked up. I believe this is just excess thread from the top with loops that never were grabbed by the shuttle point.  I found a seasoned local resource that may visit and give some on-hand tips.  I'll keep you posted

[Wizcrafts]

11 hours ago, shoeleatherexpress said:

Wizcrafts.  After further review I see I was wrong about the thread being picked up. I believe this is just excess thread from the top with loops that never were grabbed by the shuttle point.

Then your timing may be off. Slide open the needle plate, insert a good shuttle, then rotate the hand wheel to bring the needle down all the way, then stop when it rises up and halts. At this point in time, the tip of the shuttle should be just meeting the needle, above the eye, and in the scarf area. Your next movement of the wheel will bring the needle down and the hook should pass above the eye. If the hook is in any other position, in front of or behind the needle's eye, the timing is off.

[shoeleatherexpress]

Wizcrafts, the timing definitely seems to be off.  I'll adjust accordingly.

[shoeleatherexpress]

At first glance, nothing looks awry in this adjustment area, very solid not sloppy and set screws intact and tight.  Is the pulley between the flywheel and housing another place of adjusting?

[Wizcrafts]

1 hour ago, shoeleatherexpress said:

Is the pulley between the flywheel and housing another place of adjusting?

The second pulley is used to change the pulley ratio from the top and bottom. In your machine's case, the spare pulley is smaller. If you connect it to the treadle, the speed will increase as you pedal the machine. You will empty the tiny bobbins even faster with this small pulley.

[shoepatcher]

I have tension springs for the bobbin case.  Also, does your machine have a tension spring in the needle bar?  Check it.

glenn

[Ole South]

Hope this Patcher is working better for you.  The thread in your pictures looks mighty thick... 138?  Use 69 thread top and bottom to get the machine set up and working.  92 thread is about the biggest that I've found works somewhat reliably on a 29 series Patcher. Although, once functional and you have a decent stitch length you can get by using 69 or 92 (MAX) as bobbin and 138 as a top thread (for cosmetics) with a larger diameter needle (DIX4 / 29X4 -130/21** or /22) for some projects. 

Also, if you haven't already, check your bobbin shuttle drive for slop.  Side to side (NESW) and rotationally.  On machines this old I've found the wear in the arm pivot hole* coupled with wear on the shuttle drive shaft to be excessive.  Replacing the shuttle doesn't always completely close the tolerances as the hole in the arm has significant wear over the last 111 years.  I've cut feeler gauge (.002 I think?!!?) to exact size and length to "line" the shuttle shaft receiver hole* and a liberal application of high speed (not needed for speed, it sticks to glide surfaces well) silicon grease (red or green usually) during fitting and it helps.  Of course, the proper way would be to fill with and peen brass or bronze and then rebore to your shuttle shaft diameter but... I just needed mine to work for another 50 years or so.  (The rack and pinion gear(s) under the arm also play into this equation but after reducing that play as much as possible, I've still found too much slop. Those parts were usually the first swapped out until they were no longer available (25-40 years ago??).  So oft times, they have less wear than the shuttle drive area. and if no rack or idler gears are forthcoming you CAN reduce those tolerances by building up the back of the rack gears slightly (.001-.004 mebbe).  This just pushes the rack teeth deeper into the idler gears thus reducing lash,  Make sure everything still glides without resistance before lubing it up.  I found jams and thread nests under the shuttle drive virtually go away once the shuttle rotates on a stable axis.

Parts are hard to find for these oldies but goodies... some -71 parts still work, some import 71 parts need work and most of the "used" parts are worse than you have on your machine... *sigh*. You do what you can.

* (same reference)
** I believe Organ and Groz-Beckert still makes these, I've purchased them in the last 5 years.  Yeah, just checked Ebay and Amazon... both have plenty of stock.

Edited October 3, 2023 by Ole South

[Bizzib]

Is there any way of moving the needle plate or the neeedle bar, as the needle is not in the centre of the needle hole? I assume ther is an adjustment.