laser engraving

[Randy Cornelius]

Someone has started doing lazer engraving near where I live. I have thought about having some designs engraved into a leather project, nothing in mind just thinking about something new. Has anyone tried this. I asked them about it and they were not sure but would try. I thought about bringing by some scraps of leather and letting them try it. Just thought someone has already been down this road could offer some insite.

Randy

PS, I'm back on graveyard shift so I have lots of time to sit around and think while trying to stay awake.

[blinddog]

Hi Randy,

Jack Justis of Justis cases in Florida has used laser engraving on the pockets of his pool cue cases for years. It gives a fast, lasting design and doesn't make all of those thumping sounds!

check 'em out here:

http://www.justiscases.net/

Stay safe out there,

Jeff

[Studio-N]

Greetings,

well the picture of my avatar is one example of what can be done on leather.

Mostly, it is an easy fast way to do silohuette drawing, fancy lettering, or cutting through as in filigree.

Primarily, material is removed by burning it away and leaving a recess on par with a backgrounded

area. Coloration will always be dark brown. Any other questions, I'd be happy to help. peace.

[bruce johnson]

Randy,

I have done exactly one, so am no expert. I talked with a guy who has a family-run store beforehand. They were sourcing out the the glass engraving and leather lasering. He just got one, but knew the nuts and bolts of it. Basically laser on unoiled leather, the oil will bring out the darkening even more. I have attached a planner I did. It was a bit scarey, because I did the tooling first, and then took it over to her. I was dang sure hoping she had it set up so the engraving would come out centered, it did. I wasn't relishing the idea of doing it over. It turned out pretty well.

[Randy Cornelius]

Bruce, have you ever considered doing a lazer engraving on a custom saddle or say a trophy saddle?

Randy

[bruce johnson]

Randy,

In a nutshell, I wouldn't. I don't think it would hold up to use and abrasion very well. You have to have some bevel around to hold up I think. One thing I have considered is lasering in a pattern or logo, and then using that as a base for beveling and dyeing, much more accurate than a tracing and stylus. You could even just laser in the tooling pattern outline, and use that as a guide for swivel knifing. For several items the same, It would save stylus and tracing time for sure. I sure see some possibilities with lasers.

[Studio-N]

....... One thing I have considered is lasering in a pattern or logo, and then using that as a base for beveling and dyeing, much more accurate than a tracing and stylus. You could even just laser in the tooling pattern outline, and use that as a guide for swivel knifing. For several items the same, It would save stylus and tracing time for sure. I sure see some possibilities with lasers.

I have exactly done the above when making multiples. The question that often arises is whether the laser can 'replace' the swivel knife.

The short answer is no. The cut is simply too thin. Very tough to bevel, and because it is not a wide channel to start, you don't get much of a shadow line. But as a replacement for the pattern transfer phase, it is a very useful tool. I can get cutting very quickly. I have heard rumors that there are indeed saddle shops are using it to transfer patterns on production saddles. peace.

[JohnBarton]

I know this topic is years old.

Still I thought I'd add my 2cts anyway. We use the laser cutter/engraver a lot in our shop. We cut leather with it, we cut patterns using cardboard and wood and acrylic, we make all sorts of jigs. We sometimes use it to transfer patterns.

One of the best uses lately has been on one of our models where we need to do straight and even lines of stamped patterns. I did not want to scribe guidelines as those are very often visible no matter how lightly done. So we made some templates with small dots to act as guides for the tool placement. We place the template over the piece and mark the dots with a pick. The stamp covers the dots and the end result is a perfectly straight line of stamps with no guideline.

Laser cutters are extremely good for doing parts. We make all sorts of custom parts on the fly and the laser allows us to make cardboard mockups and try them and if the part doesn't work then we can easily modify it and cut another one.

As for using the leather to do designs. Well you can do quite a lot of cool stuff using the laser but it takes time to understand what you can and can't do. Depending on the type of laser you have and the software that runs it you can cut lines of various depths and widths. Some lasers can do contoured shapes through some software manipulation. So essentially it's possible to sculpt using the laser. Using the laser to design can be as simple as throwing an image on the screen and telling it to "burn" it onto the leather or as complicated as doing something that uses a combination of engraving and cutting with many layers and power/speed settings to achieve a unique effect. I have done some pretty sporty designs which some people would think were hand tooled at first glance.

In conclusion, a laser can be a very useful tool but it's not a replacement for hand tooling by a long shot. A laser can augment hand tooling in a lot of ways but never replace it. Tooling is the art of reshaping leather, lasering is the art of creating by destruction. The laser vaporizes the matter and if you understand that then you will get a great feel what you can make.

John

[UKRay]

Despite the age, this is a fascinating and constantly 'topical' topic, John, and one that I have been exploring lately. I'm currently trying to find someone in the UK to carry out contract laser work for me but I'm obviously looking in all the wrong places!

Has anyone any idea of costs for contract work? This is important as it could mean the difference between sub-contracting and buying a machine myself (which wouldn't be my first choice).

I know this topic is years old.

[JohnBarton]

Despite the age, this is a fascinating and constantly 'topical' topic, John, and one that I have been exploring lately. I'm currently trying to find someone in the UK to carry out contract laser work for me but I'm obviously looking in all the wrong places!

Has anyone any idea of costs for contract work? This is important as it could mean the difference between sub-contracting and buying a machine myself (which wouldn't be my first choice).

The best place to ask this question would be the laser/cnc section at www.sawmillcreek.org

Most laser places charge by laser running time plus setup charges. If you can give them files that are ready to go then you will save a lot. I can help you on that if you need it.

[K-Man]

UKRay: Talk to Kowboyboots here on the forum. She does laser engraving, and might be able to help you. She's here in the U.S. though. Also, ATX has a lady near him in Texas that also does laser engraving. She's a member here, too, but I don't recall her name at the moment.

Oftentimes here in the U.S., you can find a shop that does trophy, award plaques, sign making, or similar that will have a laser engraving machine.

You can do some pretty amazing stuff with the laser engraver on leather. We started offering it on our stuff about 6-7 years ago, and in a variety of forms. The biggest thing is getting the power setting correctly, as you don't want to overpower it when engraving on the leather. If you do, you end up with what I call is a "flame over." A small bit of flame pops up and burns outside of the line/object.

[hidepounder]

Randy,

In a nutshell, I wouldn't. I don't think it would hold up to use and abrasion very well. You have to have some bevel around to hold up I think. One thing I have considered is lasering in a pattern or logo, and then using that as a base for beveling and dyeing, much more accurate than a tracing and stylus. You could even just laser in the tooling pattern outline, and use that as a guide for swivel knifing. For several items the same, It would save stylus and tracing time for sure. I sure see some possibilities with lasers.

Bruce,

I have seen quite a lot of this, out here. I'm seeing more and more laserwork on trophy saddles where intricate logos were being used on fenders or back housings and where multiple saddles with that logo were being given away. A friend of mine has one of these computerized machines that he uses extensively in his trophy business. It is a $40,000 machine. He is able to scan a protrait or anything else and reproduce it on leather.....it's really amazing! He can even cut leather with the laser, leaving a dark hard edge....makes me wonder if he coud control the depth of the etch being produced so that it wasn't so shallow...I'll have to explore that with him! Definitely some exiciting possiblilities!

Bob

Just read John's and K-Man's posts...I hadn't gotten that far when I responded to Bruce's comments. There are some great ideas for using the laser on leather projects! What could be more precise than a laser produced template! Wow...good stuff!

Edited April 26, 2009 by hidepounder

[bruce johnson]

Bob,

I have seen some of the deeper lasered designs since I wrote that too. Pretty most of what I had seen up to that point were the gift-shop/vendors at the horseshow and rodeo type products with the design lightly lasered in. It is pretty cool what they can do. It seems like talking to people that they are getting more comfortable with the laser and are seeing the potential to do more than scratch a design or lettering. Seems to be more dimensional stuff on wood and leather than just an outline or flat silhouette. There seemed to be a bit of a surge in interest in them in the last few years, and probably more people having them has pushed the learning curve on using one.

[gtwister09]

Bruce/Bob/et all,

Lasers can be adjusted for depth using many methods. We played around with larger YAG ones a lot in the early 1990's when we bought a couple to cut substrates and aluminum. In between making G&M codes and setting it up we also did a lot of various methods like masking with paper and sweeping to cut some intricate designs (bitmaps). We also acquired additional depth with bitmaps by placing alternate masks.

We also used it to cut deeper into wood by adjusting time of cut with vector based information as well. There are a bunch of other methods that you can use to cut. Usually most of the people use the CNC functionality (vector based) to gain depth today.

Regards,

Ben

Edited April 26, 2009 by gtwister09

[King's X]

This is an interesting thread. Though I am not a expert in the Laser process, I have started to dive into it with Ms. Brenda at LaserGiftCreations.com (she is member here). She actually got started with leather coaster and then into laser engraved leather maker stamps. Now, she is getting into other trouble with me. She just completed a portfolio where I did like Bruce and stamped/engraved the thing and then gave it to her to laser the logo for my friend.

We were both a little nervous, but she seemed to take it in stride and has gone beyond her comfort zone to get into other areas involving her machine. She wants to know the limitations and I plan on taking her there. We have talked about other areas that we are looking at.

Just a couple of days, she delivered a checkbook cover, roper's wallet and billfold. My friends wanted a go kart racer on the cover along with their racing company's name. I did tool it and it came out okay, but Ms. Brenda blew me out of the water with the laser. I presented both projects to the customer and she easily chose the laser for the detail. So, Ms. Brenda did the laser work and I will complete the tooling and lacing along with the insides before they are delivered.

I am also working on some finish work with the laser and I hope you don't mind if I share. Maybe I can save you some heartache and $$. One thing about Ms. Brenda is she works with you and doesn't charge you for everything especially if it is somewhere she hasn't been. I don't know what a "Brick & Mortar" place would do? Probably charge you. Going rate for laser work is a minimum of $1 per laser minute. Some i've checked go upwards of $2 per laser minute. Plus, you have to worry about design time and preparation, but the laser operator should be able to give you the estimated laser time when the design has been prepared.

Some things to consider when using a laser that I have learned:

1. The 'vector' or depth has a lot to do with your design and longevity.

2. Continuous bending anywhere near the laser site may distort the design.

3. Nothing is forever. The tooling will definately last longer, but the laser will look nicer. unless you Peter Main or Al Stohlman.

4. Make sure you find out what the laser operator does once the product has been burnt. Ms. Brenda will either use Lexol or wash with water (very important).

5. Sealing the design will create a barrier to imagine lost, but will not concrete it forever (see below).

6. I am sure I missed about 100 more things, but the operator should be able to give you this information plus more if you just ask.

What I have learned from using various processes:

antique gel & Dye:

Working well if you are careful. using a heavy hand to "rub" in the product will bring out some of 'burned' leather to the surface and graffiti will occur (smear marks in the direction of your rubbing).

Neat-lac (Spray & manual application)

Spraying the product over the leather laser design appears to be the easy and simplistic idea that you will come up with, but some issues lerk. The 'spraying' only covers the 'top coat' of the leather and does not go deep into the 'vector' areas of the burnt areas. continuous bending of the project anywhere near the laser design will create 'crease' lines and may bubble up. I also tried a project with repeated applications and all I seemed to do was build one layer on top of another. Still didn't solve my problem even though I thought I did.

Manual application was another idea that I thought was going to be great after hearing so much about Neat-Lac on leatherworker.net. I thought I could massage the NL into all of the 'vector' areas to get good penetration and protection. Wrong! As I massaged the NL on the design, I quickly noticed that the 'burnt' leather or 'ashes' were coming up and next I saw was swirl marks in the direction of my application.

Super Sheen

Spraying the SS did the same thing as spraying the NL. It didn't get into all of the cuts deep enough to offer good protection. See above.

Manual application appeared to do much better. I used a dauber this time and lightly spread the SS over the entire project area. It has been drying for 9 hours so far. I am waiting another 8 hours before I proceed. I can report back later if you want. One thing to note was that there were no swirl marks that I could see. I did bend it in two opposite directions and got what I call very small cracking like response, but all in all it still looks good.

Bee Natural

No spraying application was conducted. I did do it manually with a dauber and besides the marks that it left from the direction of application, it came out well. I have put on one application and it has been drying for the past 8 hours. I have bent it in two directions approximately 5 times and still no crease line.

Results: Take the imformation above for what it is and conduct your own testing. For me it appears that I will be using 'Bee Natural' to seal a finish on my wallets when I complete them. I don't do this for a business but for my family and friends, so you need to conduct your business. I have to admit that my stuff has to come out almost perfect before I give it away, which is what I do for my family. All I ask up front is money to replace the leather so someone else can benefit from my projects. I consider the tooling to be practice!

Disclaimer: I am nowhere near an expert on chemicals, their reactions, any products, leather or stamping and carving. I do this as a hobby and without the advice and help from Ms. Brenda, this testing would not have happened.

Side note: Whomever you go with, kill to birds with one stone. Order a set of 8 coasters with your favorite picture of your family, dog, horse, girlfriend or girlfriends, boyfriends, etc. With those coasters do your own testing and after you ruin then or create a Michael Angelo, you can always placed them in your shop area or living room. For those of you in a "get even" mood, put a pick of an ex or mother in law on there and think about it everytime you put something wet or cold, it will place a smile on your face and a pleasant vision in your mind...

Best of luck

[UKRay]

Very helpful information, ATX. I will cut some coasters and use them to check out what can be done locally. Thanks.

Many thanks, K-Man. I'm working on it!

UKRay: Talk to Kowboyboots here on the forum. She does laser engraving, and might be able to help you. She's here in the U.S. though. Also, ATX has a lady near him in Texas that also does laser engraving. She's a member here, too, but I don't recall her name at the moment.

Oftentimes here in the U.S., you can find a shop that does trophy, award plaques, sign making, or similar that will have a laser engraving machine.

You can do some pretty amazing stuff with the laser engraver on leather. We started offering it on our stuff about 6-7 years ago, and in a variety of forms. The biggest thing is getting the power setting correctly, as you don't want to overpower it when engraving on the leather. If you do, you end up with what I call is a "flame over." A small bit of flame pops up and burns outside of the line/object.

[Kowboyboots]

That's all I use is a laser.

Kowboyboots click any where on page to go to web shots.

I mostly work in hair on but there are plenty of samples of other leathers too.

Randy Sever of Sever Bros is using a laser on some of his trophy saddles, FYI.

If any one needs custom work I don't charge a set an $5-$10 on most projects.

Something like coasters I charge 50 cents to $1 depends on the size of the logo.

I have an advantage most don't have. Everything I have is paid for so I don't have to make a lot of money..

My joy comes from happy customers not the money any more.

You talk about scared putting things in the laser, I had a very expensive leather jacket someone wanted a design on the back of. We pulled it off but was pretty stressful.

Lately I have been burning sweatshirts with the designs, like burnout velvet. Looks really neat.

Edited April 26, 2009 by Kowboyboots

[hidepounder]

Bob,

I have seen some of the deeper lasered designs since I wrote that too. Pretty most of what I had seen up to that point were the gift-shop/vendors at the horseshow and rodeo type products with the design lightly lasered in. It is pretty cool what they can do. It seems like talking to people that they are getting more comfortable with the laser and are seeing the potential to do more than scratch a design or lettering. Seems to be more dimensional stuff on wood and leather than just an outline or flat silhouette. There seemed to be a bit of a surge in interest in them in the last few years, and probably more people having them has pushed the learning curve on using one.

I know I shouldn't feel this way.....but some of the really cool laser work I've seen on leather makes me a little nervous! What's the number for that Silver Engraving School, Bruce,....I might need that!!!

Bob

[bruce johnson]

Bob,

I hear you on that. I think that GRS is still doing the engraving schools in Kansas, and then there was a guy in Alpine, TX that used to advertise too. If that doesn't work out, there is always "Internet Millions", "No Money Down", or "Buying Foreclosures at Auction for Fun and Profit". "Long Live Cowgirls!"

Kowboyboots,

Thanks for sharing your insight and experience. You are ahead of the pack on what you are doing for sure. I appreciate it and see some real possibilities. Just out of curiosity, the logo and lettering on the planner I did a couple years ago took about 20 minutes in the machine. About right? I don't know what kind and size of laser she has, but it is kind of middle of the road cost and capacity as I recall. It is not burned real deep, but has held up well in daily use so far.

[JohnBarton]

That's all I use is a laser.

You talk about scared putting things in the laser, I had a very expensive leather jacket someone wanted a design on the back of. We pulled it off but was pretty stressful.

Lately I have been burning sweatshirts with the designs, like burnout velvet. Looks really neat.

Oh, I have some stories for you along these lines. :-) Not happy endings either.

[jbird]

What sort of lasers or people using, were can they be found.

Josh

Long Live Cowboys and Cowgirls!

Edited April 27, 2009 by jbird

[gtwister09]

Josh,

Here's a couple of posts where you can see brands of desktop lasers.

Laser Post #1

Laser Post #2

Regards,

Ben

[jbird]

Thanks BEN

Josh

Josh,

Here's a couple of posts where you can see brands of desktop lasers.

Laser Post #1

Laser Post #2

Regards,

Ben

[JohnBarton]

I know I shouldn't feel this way.....but some of the really cool laser work I've seen on leather makes me a little nervous! What's the number for that Silver Engraving School, Bruce,....I might need that!!!

Bob

Believe me when I tell you that there are no laser engraved pieces ever that are "better" than the stuff you do. Someone might pick one over yours at some point but that's just a reflection on their taste and not their knowledge or appreciation level. And also believe me when I tell you that creating something by using the laser that even begins to approach your work requires hundreds of hours of practice and intimacy with the laser and the leather to use it for that level of work. It's a high powered tool with a lot of applications but it doesn't replace the brain and certainly does not infuse anyone with artistic talent.

[King's X]

John Barton

True.........True!