left, right side presser feet and center groover for 441

[esantoro]

I just got in right and left side presser feet and the center groover for my 441. I've noticed that with the holster plate installed, the outer feet never move off the plate, that is they never walk.

Those of you who have these presser feet and use them with the raised needle plates, do you have to readjust the presser foot bar every time you change from the flat needle plate to the raised needle plate, and vice versa?

Ed

[Luke Hatley]

I just got in right and left side presser feet and the center groover for my 441. I've noticed that with the holster plate installed, the outer feet never move off the plate, that is they never walk.

Those of you who have these presser feet and use them with the raised needle plates, do you have to readjust the presser foot bar every time you change from the flat needle plate to the raised needle plate, and vice versa?

Ed

ED i do on my sewmo. imagin the stirup plate is about 1/2" tall and if i dont loosen th tension on the needle bar it puts too much pressure on what i am sewing.

[esantoro]

ED i do on my sewmo. imagin the stirup plate is about 1/2" tall and if i dont loosen th tension on the needle bar it puts too much pressure on what i am sewing.

I have to change presser feet and needle plates quite frequently. I'd hate also to have to adjust the center presser foot bar and outer presser foot bar as well, every time I need to change an attachment for a ten minute task.

Prior to today, I was changing needle plates at will , as well as the double toe harness foot and the blanket foot. The individual outer feet and center groover seem to require bar adjustments as well, which I wasn't expecting. I suppose one option is to just stick with the center groover and individual outer feet, which is what I'll probably have to do.

I'll consult my manual but ask anyway, how do you change the height of the center foot bar? I know how to adjust the height of the outer foot bar, pretty easy, but not the center foot bar.

Thanks for the help.

Ed

[Luke Hatley]

ed. hate to say this... but if you have to keep changing things

back and forth ... more machines are in your future....

[esantoro]

ed. hate to say this... but if you have to keep changing things

back and forth ... more machines are in your future....

The move to get the small portable for suede interiors was a good one, but a second heavy stitcher doesn't seem possible right now. I think I'll have to end up sticking with the rt. and lt. outer feet and the center groover to do everything. I do like the stitch they put down.

Attached is a pdf of the presser feet I now have. The picture is Artisan's. I bought my feet and needle plates from a different supplier. I'd be curious to know if Artisan's feet can all be interchanged without adjusting any bar heights.

ed

presser_feet.pdf

presser_feet.pdf

Edited February 16, 2008 by esantoro

[Art]

Hi Ed,

Inner feet seem to be ok no matter who's you use. Outer feet are quite a different story. Some make them a little shorter to easily accommodate thick materials, Ferdco comes to mind. All this can be adjusted though, I have used both Ferdco and Artisan feet on my machines but prefer to stick with one brand for a particular machine. I know it isn't possible for a lot of folks, but if I see a presser foot/needle plate combo that I really need, I buy the machine attached to it also. For production work, changing feet/plates/setups is a waste of manpower and money. You usually recoup the cost of the new machine within a year. If you can't go the new machine route, you should plan and stage your work so you can accomplish all of a particular type of sewing at the same time to minimize setups. This will require you to have a lot more work in process and may at first be an organizational headache (not to mention the materials expense of having all that partially completed work hanging around) but the time saving is considerable. Eventually you realize that all that partially completed work is taking up more room than a couple of extra machines.

Art

The move to get the small portable for suede interiors was a good one, but a second heavy stitcher doesn't seem possible right now. I think I'll have to end up sticking with the rt. and lt. outer feet and the center groover to do everything. I do like the stitch they put down.

Attached is a pdf of the presser feet I now have. The picture is Artisan's. I bought my feet and needle plates from a different supplier. I'd be curious to know if Artisan's feet can all be interchanged without adjusting any bar heights.

ed

[esantoro]

Hi Ed,

Inner feet seem to be ok no matter who's you use. Outer feet are quite a different story. Some make them a little shorter to easily accommodate thick materials, Ferdco comes to mind. All this can be adjusted though, I have used both Ferdco and Artisan feet on my machines but prefer to stick with one brand for a particular machine. I know it isn't possible for a lot of folks, but if I see a presser foot/needle plate combo that I really need, I buy the machine attached to it also. For production work, changing feet/plates/setups is a waste of manpower and money. You usually recoup the cost of the new machine within a year. If you can't go the new machine route, you should plan and stage your work so you can accomplish all of a particular type of sewing at the same time to minimize setups. This will require you to have a lot more work in process and may at first be an organizational headache (not to mention the materials expense of having all that partially completed work hanging around) but the time saving is considerable. Eventually you realize that all that partially completed work is taking up more room than a couple of extra machines.

Art

Hi Art,

This is the very thing giving me difficulty right now, a little piece work here and there on one or two bags, then a long break, a very long break. I don't mind just changing the needle plate,but constantly adjusting bar heights,too, is where I draw the line.

I think I need to adjust my my machine to use just the outer feet and inner groover. I can set the bar for the outer feet easily, but am not sure about how to set the height of the inner foot. According to the manual, it looks easy enough. Am I correct in following the instructions detailed in the attached manual page?

By the way, do you happen to know if Artisans outer feet and double toed foot are the same length from top to bottom? I may just bite the bullet and splurge on some artisan feet if they have some standardization in the length.

Ed

walking_foot.pdf

walking_foot.pdf

Edited February 16, 2008 by esantoro

[Art]

Hi Ed,

I worry about teaching this stuff without the benefit of proper teaching aids like pointing and talking. Maybe Dave can give you help or you can get an industrial sewing machine guy to explain it to you. That being said, when you start doing stuff like this, you need more than the rudimentary education needed for a machine operator. The walking foot mechanism is a little complicated but they made it as one system to keep cost and space down. There is only one spring to tension both feet and only one adjustment for that tension, there are not two presser foot adjustments (someone asked this earlier, or in another life). Pull off the side cover. The biggest block of metal in there other than the crank end is the thing that helps actuate the presser feet. This block acts as an anchor for the outside presser feet and also applies pressure to the inside presser foot through a lever. This block may have a wheel on it that rides up the back of the case. The lever has a rod that connects it to a adjustable rod end on the walking foot shaft, this is the short outside shaft on a 441. The other end of the short shaft(toward the middle of the machine) has another adjustable rod end that also has an adjustment that is in your picture. This adjustment is for the range of motion of the short shaft that operates the walking feet. Basically this adjustment is for height of lift and not for basic resting height. The further out the adjustment is, the less it will move the short walking foot shaft. The reason for this adjustment is that most of these machines sew one thing all day. Same stuff and same thickness. The machine works more efficiently if the feet move the minimum amount to effectively sew. The real adjustments are in the head and the other end (head cover end) if the short walking foot shaft. The adjustable rod end on the walking foot shaft allows you to set the equilibrium or balance point where both feet are down, but if you don't affect the timing it can be used to adjust the height of the feet to some degree.

Now, until you understand how this system works and relates timing wise to the needle system, hook system, and the needle feed system, you shouldn't be making adjustments to the foot shafts in the head (which are collars in the blocks that lift these shafts). If I were to change these heights, I would probably re time everything. This should not really be necessary to make these kinds of adjustments for a simple foot change, and all the more reason to buy accessory parts from the distributor.

Anyway, pull the side cover off and look really carefully at all that's going on in there, it ain't rocket science, but it is brilliant mechanical engineering, and understanding what is going on will help you understand the other adjustments on the machine.

P.S. Don't forget to put the thread tension release (for upper thread tension) back on the presser foot lift rod when putting the cover back on.

Art

Hi Art,

This is the very thing giving me difficulty right now, a little piece work here and there on one or two bags, then a long break, a very long break. I don't mind just changing the needle plate,but constantly adjusting bar heights,too, is where I draw the line.

I think I need to adjust my my machine to use just the outer feet and inner groover. I can set the bar for the outer feet easily, but am not sure about how to set the height of the inner foot. According to the manual, it looks easy enough. Am I correct in following the instructions detailed in the attached manual page?

By the way, do you happen to know if Artisans outer feet and double toed foot are the same length from top to bottom? I may just bite the bullet and splurge on some artisan feet if they have some standardization in the length.

Ed

[esantoro]

Hi Ed,

I worry about teaching this stuff without the benefit of proper teaching aids like pointing and talking. Maybe Dave can give you help or you can get an industrial sewing machine guy to explain it to you. That being said, when you start doing stuff like this, you need more than the rudimentary education needed for a machine operator. The walking foot mechanism is a little complicated but they made it as one system to keep cost and space down. There is only one spring to tension both feet and only one adjustment for that tension, there are not two presser foot adjustments (someone asked this earlier, or in another life). Pull off the side cover. The biggest block of metal in there other than the crank end is the thing that helps actuate the presser feet. This block acts as an anchor for the outside presser feet and also applies pressure to the inside presser foot through a lever. This block may have a wheel on it that rides up the back of the case. The lever has a rod that connects it to a adjustable rod end on the walking foot shaft, this is the short outside shaft on a 441. The other end of the short shaft(toward the middle of the machine) has another adjustable rod end that also has an adjustment that is in your picture. This adjustment is for the range of motion of the short shaft that operates the walking feet. Basically this adjustment is for height of lift and not for basic resting height. The further out the adjustment is, the less it will move the short walking foot shaft. The reason for this adjustment is that most of these machines sew one thing all day. Same stuff and same thickness. The machine works more efficiently if the feet move the minimum amount to effectively sew. The real adjustments are in the head and the other end (head cover end) if the short walking foot shaft. The adjustable rod end on the walking foot shaft allows you to set the equilibrium or balance point where both feet are down, but if you don't affect the timing it can be used to adjust the height of the feet to some degree.

Now, until you understand how this system works and relates timing wise to the needle system, hook system, and the needle feed system, you shouldn't be making adjustments to the foot shafts in the head (which are collars in the blocks that lift these shafts). If I were to change these heights, I would probably re time everything. This should not really be necessary to make these kinds of adjustments for a simple foot change, and all the more reason to buy accessory parts from the distributor.

Anyway, pull the side cover off and look really carefully at all that's going on in there, it ain't rocket science, but it is brilliant mechanical engineering, and understanding what is going on will help you understand the other adjustments on the machine.

P.S. Don't forget to put the thread tension release (for upper thread tension) back on the presser foot lift rod when putting the cover back on.

Art

Hi Art,

I'm going to illustrate my entire adventure and post it later this evening. But before I do that I want to post my latest discovery.

With these new outside presser feet and the inner groover foot, I was getting 1/4" of clearance with the flat slotted plate. This motivated all the fooling around.

I loosened the one allen head bolt that allows lowering of the center foot bar. There was one stop screw that did not allow the center foot, which is by the way shorter than the other two center feet I have (blanket foot and harness makers foot), to descend all the way to the needle bar or about 1 to 2 mm off the needle bar. I took this stop screw out and was able to lower the center foot bar as low as needed. However, another problem occurred: there is a a swing arm elbow that slightly grazes the inner back wall of the head face plate. I will now proceed to dremel off a smidgen.

I thought I'd report on this move now, just in case anyone wishes to stop me in the next ten minutes.

Thanks,

Ed, who, if he were a cat, would be killed by curiosity by now

Edited February 17, 2008 by esantoro

[esantoro]

I really think I do have a knack for all this mechanical stuff,which is just another way for me to justify jumping into this honorary PhD in mechanical engineering, with thanks to all who have provided me the necessary encouragement and confidence, also which is another way to say I have already started fiddling around with the clamps and screws and bolts and....There ain't no turning back now. I'm getting my wish to learn how these machines work.

okay, I think I have figured out a bit of what's going on. I'll have to check thicknesses to be sure, but I'm pretty sure I'm correct.

Ever since I changed from the stock blanket needle plate to the slotted flat and raised plates, I noticed that the presser feet were too high, though in reality this was only the case with the flat slotted plate.. This was also primarily the case with the harness makers foot, which is not as thick, thus a lower overall descent that that with the blanket foot. At the time I never had cause to fiddle with the center foot bar.

Then the need arose to improve stitching on gusset corners, really only with the middle gusset stitching, three layers of leather. The harness makers foot just did not allow me to stitch those corners properly, forcing meto hand punch and hand stitch. This was the case even with the raised needle plates.

I then opted for the outer presser feet and inner groover foot, really needing only the rt. foot and inner groover for these gusset corners. This set up was of a much different length then the other setups: the inner groover is shorter than the other inner feet I have, rising 3/16" to 1/4" off the slotted flat plate when at its lowest descent.

so, here is what I had to do. I had to find a way to lower the center groover beyond the point that the stop screw would allow. The stop screw is in the lower red circle pictured in "head1 ann.png." however, by taking out this stop screw and allowing the center foot bar to descend 1/8" to 1/4" lower, the rocker arm elbow, pictured in the green circle of "head1 ann.png", was pushed out farther toward the left wall of the head face plate, which had to be filed down a bit.

Someone please let me know if taking out the stop screw was a bad move.

Now that I've made the fix, I realize this problem also arose because the slotted flat needle plate is thinner or has a lower rise than the original blanket foot plate that came with the machine. I could have fixed this problem by shimming the needle plate and using two washers underneath the plate. i still may do this.

What I also learned

I also learned how to reduce or increase the to and fro travel of the center foot in relation to the outer foot. When I set up these new feet without any modifications, I noticed that the outer foot was always well in front of the center foot, too much for my taste. There is one allen head bolt on the machine that when loosened allows for the adjustment of this to and fro motion, which I now have set to about 1/8" at its narrowest. (see pic "cf tofro ann.png" ). A picture of this foot with the adjustment is in "rt ft 1.png"

Please let me know if this was a wise move or if I may have set off some other problem waiting to happen.

thanks,

ed

Edited March 2, 2008 by Johanna
reduced pic sizes

[esantoro]

I just want to get back to stitching my bags and stop all this fiddling with the hardware.

I think I've figured everything out and am no worse for the wear, probably a bit better in the long run.

Another thing I did, because I wasn't thrilled with the stitches with the raised needle plates and the new presser feet, was to reinstall the needle guide. Stitches do seem better with the needle guide installed.

Now bag to a little bag work.

Ed

[esantoro]

Hi Art,

Is there one adjustment screw that will raise or lower the resting height of the inner and outer presser feet in unison, rather than having to adjust them separately? I think that's what you were getting at it your post.

FWIW, I think I now know with conviction how to adjust the height of the inner and outer feet:

1. Suspend both feet with the hand lever. Turn the flywheel so that inner and outer feet are the same height.

2. Loosen the allen head bolt on the left side of the short shaft in back of the head (as if you were sitting in the operating position).

3. Lower the inner foot about 3/16" below the level of the outer foot. Then tighten that same allen head bolt on the left side of the short shaft.

4. Now I just need to find the one adjustment that will raise both of these the same resting distance to or from the needle plate.

As always, thanks so much for your help, Art. For me, anyway, I think it's good to know how to do these things, though I do realize that most people use these machines to do 10 oz or so all day and never seem to need to make these adjustments.

I'll take all the pics necessary to document these procedures, and then this thread cold be a useful resource for adjusting all things related to presser feet.

ed

Hi Ed,

I worry about teaching this stuff without the benefit of proper teaching aids like pointing and talking. Maybe Dave can give you help or you can get an industrial sewing machine guy to explain it to you. That being said, when you start doing stuff like this, you need more than the rudimentary education needed for a machine operator. The walking foot mechanism is a little complicated but they made it as one system to keep cost and space down. There is only one spring to tension both feet and only one adjustment for that tension, there are not two presser foot adjustments (someone asked this earlier, or in another life). Pull off the side cover. The biggest block of metal in there other than the crank end is the thing that helps actuate the presser feet. This block acts as an anchor for the outside presser feet and also applies pressure to the inside presser foot through a lever. This block may have a wheel on it that rides up the back of the case. The lever has a rod that connects it to a adjustable rod end on the walking foot shaft, this is the short outside shaft on a 441. The other end of the short shaft(toward the middle of the machine) has another adjustable rod end that also has an adjustment that is in your picture. This adjustment is for the range of motion of the short shaft that operates the walking feet. Basically this adjustment is for height of lift and not for basic resting height. The further out the adjustment is, the less it will move the short walking foot shaft. The reason for this adjustment is that most of these machines sew one thing all day. Same stuff and same thickness. The machine works more efficiently if the feet move the minimum amount to effectively sew. The real adjustments are in the head and the other end (head cover end) if the short walking foot shaft. The adjustable rod end on the walking foot shaft allows you to set the equilibrium or balance point where both feet are down, but if you don't affect the timing it can be used to adjust the height of the feet to some degree.

Now, until you understand how this system works and relates timing wise to the needle system, hook system, and the needle feed system, you shouldn't be making adjustments to the foot shafts in the head (which are collars in the blocks that lift these shafts). If I were to change these heights, I would probably re time everything. This should not really be necessary to make these kinds of adjustments for a simple foot change, and all the more reason to buy accessory parts from the distributor.

Anyway, pull the side cover off and look really carefully at all that's going on in there, it ain't rocket science, but it is brilliant mechanical engineering, and understanding what is going on will help you understand the other adjustments on the machine.

P.S. Don't forget to put the thread tension release (for upper thread tension) back on the presser foot lift rod when putting the cover back on.

Art

[esantoro]

Hi Art,

This is the very thing giving me difficulty right now, a little piece work here and there on one or two bags, then a long break, a very long break. I don't mind just changing the needle plate,but constantly adjusting bar heights,too, is where I draw the line.

I think I need to adjust my my machine to use just the outer feet and inner groover. I can set the bar for the outer feet easily, but am not sure about how to set the height of the inner foot. According to the manual, it looks easy enough. Am I correct in following the instructions detailed in the attached manual page?

By the way, do you happen to know if Artisans outer feet and double toed foot are the same length from top to bottom? I may just bite the bullet and splurge on some artisan feet if they have some standardization in the length.

Ed

I have put the stop screw back into the clamp, behind the face plate, for the center presser foot, resulting in the center foot resting 1/4" off the needle plate. Now, if I can find my 14mm socket, I will attempt to lower the height of the walking foot as outlined in the manual page attached as a pdf, which is what I think I should have done in the first place.

By any chance can someone tell me if this will simultaneously raise the inner foot and outer foot, or just the inner foot? It is my understanding now that this adjustment is most likely the only one necessary if one runs into a situation where a combination of presser feet and needle plate results in the presser feet not being low enough for a particular application, such as one layer of 5/6 oz chrome tan and the center presser foot's lowest position is 1/4" above the needle plate.

Ed

[esantoro]

I have put the stop screw back into the clamp, behind the face plate, for the center presser foot, resulting in the center foot resting 1/4" off the needle plate. Now, if I can find my 14mm socket, I will attempt to lower the height of the walking foot as outlined in the manual page attached as a pdf, which is what I think I should have done in the first place.

By any chance can someone tell me if this will simultaneously raise the inner foot and outer foot, or just the inner foot? It is my understanding now that this adjustment is most likely the only one necessary if one runs into a situation where a combination of presser feet and needle plate results in the presser feet not being low enough for a particular application, such as one layer of 5/6 oz chrome tan and the center presser foot's lowest position is 1/4" above the needle plate.

Ed

I did it, but I'm not 100 percent certain what that bolt does. One minute I thought it was adjusting only the rise of the outer foot. The next moment it seemed to be adjusting only the inner foot. I once again removed the stop screw for the inner foot, as it was the only way to get the inner foot to apply some presser on one layer of 5/6 oz chrome tan.

If you have one of these 441 machines and are willing, could you post a photo of how this 14mm bolt is adjusted? To the top of the track, or to the bottom. Before I adjusted anything, mine was about 3 mm past center, toward the top of the track.

I think my slotted flat needle plate is the real issue, as it seems to sit lower than the stock needle plate did, maybe about 1/16" to 1/8" lower.

ed