Burnisher Grinder conversion

[BrainTannedKiwi]

Hey guys I recently bought a bench grinder that I would like to use to burnish belts, I need to burnish the flesh side and also the edges too, sanding shouldnt be as much of a use. Whats the best way to do this? I was thinking having one side wooden burnisher with grooves and the other side a sleeve of canvas for the flesh side, is that the best way to do it?

Thanks heaps!

[James1]

I wonder if a bench grinder might be too high of RPM’s for burnishing. It might tend to burn the edges. 

[dikman]

It works ok for me, I turned a burnisher on the lathe and forced it onto the grinder shaft to cut the threads so it screws on. I use the same grinder motor for buffing and wire wheels. You could also fit a drum sander to one side to sand the leather. I haven't bothered doing that as I have a couple of belt grinders, but be aware sanding leather with a machine makes a LOT of mess!! I'm not sure how effective a canvas sleeve would be as I think it might just act as a burnisher too?

[BrainTannedKiwi]

On 5/9/2024 at 12:42 AM, James1 said:

I wonder if a bench grinder might be too high of RPM’s for burnishing. It might tend to burn the edges. 

I think it should be ok as long as i use plenty of fluids 

On 5/9/2024 at 11:20 AM, dikman said:

It works ok for me, I turned a burnisher on the lathe and forced it onto the grinder shaft to cut the threads so it screws on. I use the same grinder motor for buffing and wire wheels. You could also fit a drum sander to one side to sand the leather. I haven't bothered doing that as I have a couple of belt grinders, but be aware sanding leather with a machine makes a LOT of mess!! I'm not sure how effective a canvas sleeve would be as I think it might just act as a burnisher too?

yea thats what ill be doing, i was thinking maybe just a flat round bar of wood would work for burnishing the flesh side what do you think? and yes sanding makes a lot of mess thats why i try to avoid it also probably not very healthy

[Mablung]

1 hour ago, BrainTannedKiwi said:

I think it should be ok as long as i use plenty of fluids 

yea thats what ill be doing, i was thinking maybe just a flat round bar of wood would work for burnishing the flesh side what do you think? and yes sanding makes a lot of mess thats why i try to avoid it also probably not very healthy

By “flat round bar of wood,” I assume you mean one that is smooth, without additional grooves cut in its perimeter?

[BrainTannedKiwi]

59 minutes ago, Mablung said:

By “flat round bar of wood,” I assume you mean one that is smooth, without additional grooves cut in its perimeter?

haha yes. a log for simpler terms

[TomE]

9 hours ago, BrainTannedKiwi said:

I think it should be ok as long as i use plenty of fluids 

Saddle soap is a good lubricant.  I switched to Fiebings paste saddle soap applied to the edge with a damp piece of canvas.  This works better for me than swiping a wet sponge on a bar of saddle soap, which delivers more water and less glycerin lubricant to the edge.  I am using a Cobra burnisher set at about 2000 (?) rpm.

[BrainTannedKiwi]

45 minutes ago, TomE said:

Saddle soap is a good lubricant.  I switched to Fiebings paste saddle soap applied to the edge with a damp piece of canvas.  This works better for me than swiping a wet sponge on a bar of saddle soap, which delivers more water and less glycerin lubricant to the edge.  I am using a Cobra burnisher set at about 2000 (?) rpm.

so is the canvas attached to the burnisher or is that by hand? Lots of people are pointing towards saddle soap, seems like the go there are a few types though haha, paste bar spray, allsorts. Im just trying to think of the best way to have good  consistent edges and flesh side using a motor burnisher.

[Mablung]

9 hours ago, BrainTannedKiwi said:

haha yes. a log for simpler terms

Lol, I gotcha.  I was confused by the "flat round" series of adjectives and thought, "I think I know what he means, but I'll clarify anyway to be sure..."

[TomE]

2 hours ago, BrainTannedKiwi said:

so is the canvas attached to the burnisher or is that by hand? Lots of people are pointing towards saddle soap, seems like the go there are a few types though haha, paste bar spray, allsorts. Im just trying to think of the best way to have good  consistent edges and flesh side using a motor burnisher.

It is a small square of canvas that I use to apply saddle soap to the edge before power burnishing with the wooden Cobra burnisher.  I've tried making a canvas sleeve to fit over the Cobra burnisher (either side) but the sleeves wear out quickly when burnishing 9-10 oz bridle leather.

I guess I've experimented nonstop for several years with burnishing protocols.  I've used gum tragacanth, water, saddle soap, Martin's Edge Solution, polyvinyl acetate (Elmer's white glue), beeswax +/- paraffin, a homemade paste of carnauba wax-beeswax-neatsfoot oil, and Tokonole.  Slicking with canvas, wooden/plastic/bone burnishers, and the wooden power burnisher +/- a canvas sleeve.  I've also done a topcoat of beeswax applied with a heated edge iron.  All that stuff works, more or less.  The biggest thing for success with a power burnisher is learning how much water and lubricant are needed to produce a slick edge without overheating.  Just need to practice for your type of leather and burnishing machine.

Here's my current protocol for bridle leather.  I try to avoid sanding the edges unless they are really rough because edge finishing is already very time consuming, and sanding bridle leather can do more harm than good - the coarse fibers tend to pull up and the edge gets rougher.  I apply Pro Dye to the edge with a block of heavy felt or Magic Eraser held in a clothespin (or use one of the refillable markers with the felt tip).  Once the dye has soaked in but the edge is still damp I apply some saddle soap using a damp piece of canvas then immediately power burnish as a first pass.  I then dab on Tokonole (or Elmer's glue diluted 4-5x with water), wait for it to become tacky, then power burnish.  I finish by polishing the edge with a piece of dry canvas.  If I'm going to further seal the edge I dab on softened beeswax and work it into the leather with a heated edge iron.  I then rub the edge with a piece of canvas to remove excess wax.

I guess I will continue to experiment and would enjoy hearing others' experiences.  The HO bridle leather is difficult to slick, compared to regular veg tan, but I like its firm temper for horse tack.  Wickett and Craig bridle has a softer temper and is easier to slick.  HO traditional harness is waxy and easy to burnish.  That's my 2 cents.

[BrainTannedKiwi]

5 hours ago, TomE said:

It is a small square of canvas that I use to apply saddle soap to the edge before power burnishing with the wooden Cobra burnisher.  I've tried making a canvas sleeve to fit over the Cobra burnisher (either side) but the sleeves wear out quickly when burnishing 9-10 oz bridle leather.

I guess I've experimented nonstop for several years with burnishing protocols.  I've used gum tragacanth, water, saddle soap, Martin's Edge Solution, polyvinyl acetate (Elmer's white glue), beeswax +/- paraffin, a homemade paste of carnauba wax-beeswax-neatsfoot oil, and Tokonole.  Slicking with canvas, wooden/plastic/bone burnishers, and the wooden power burnisher +/- a canvas sleeve.  I've also done a topcoat of beeswax applied with a heated edge iron.  All that stuff works, more or less.  The biggest thing for success with a power burnisher is learning how much water and lubricant are needed to produce a slick edge without overheating.  Just need to practice for your type of leather and burnishing machine.

Here's my current protocol for bridle leather.  I try to avoid sanding the edges unless they are really rough because edge finishing is already very time consuming, and sanding bridle leather can do more harm than good - the coarse fibers tend to pull up and the edge gets rougher.  I apply Pro Dye to the edge with a block of heavy felt or Magic Eraser held in a clothespin (or use one of the refillable markers with the felt tip).  Once the dye has soaked in but the edge is still damp I apply some saddle soap using a damp piece of canvas then immediately power burnish as a first pass.  I then dab on Tokonole (or Elmer's glue diluted 4-5x with water), wait for it to become tacky, then power burnish.  I finish by polishing the edge with a piece of dry canvas.  If I'm going to further seal the edge I dab on softened beeswax and work it into the leather with a heated edge iron.  I then rub the edge with a piece of canvas to remove excess wax.

I guess I will continue to experiment and would enjoy hearing others' experiences.  The HO bridle leather is difficult to slick, compared to regular veg tan, but I like its firm temper for horse tack.  Wickett and Craig bridle has a softer temper and is easier to slick.  HO traditional harness is waxy and easy to burnish.  That's my 2 cents.

Thanks for your 3 cents, thats a lot of insight. The leather Im working with isnt too stiff, fit for purpose as I am only doing belts not something a horse could yank off. I will definitely get some saddle soap, and the cloths damp so edge doesnt burn correct?

I will test out my theory of a plain cylinder of wood for the flesh side polish then try the canvas sleeve and see how long that lasts me, could beeswax or gumtrag be used as a final sealer rather than tokonole or is tokonole the best?

[TomE]

3 hours ago, BrainTannedKiwi said:

Thanks for your 3 cents, thats a lot of insight. The leather Im working with isnt too stiff, fit for purpose as I am only doing belts not something a horse could yank off. I will definitely get some saddle soap, and the cloths damp so edge doesnt burn correct?

I will test out my theory of a plain cylinder of wood for the flesh side polish then try the canvas sleeve and see how long that lasts me, could beeswax or gumtrag be used as a final sealer rather than tokonole or is tokonole the best?

A slightly damp edge will help the fibers compress into a smooth surface and a bit of lubricant (saddle soap, conditioner, etc) helps prevent overheating with the power burnisher.  Need to find the right balance of moisture and friction to get the results you want.  You sure can use beeswax or gumtrag to finish, but I find it easier to get a smooth, hard, shiney edge with Tokonole.  I am guessing it is essentially glue in some type of slippery vehicle, probably silicone based like cyclomethicone used in hair products.  A wax treatment might be a better choice for sealing the edge for outdoor use but it is more work and doesn't shine like Tokonole.  For horse tack there's an expectation that it will be maintained by cleaning, conditioning and occasional oiling so I am not aiming to seal the leather.  There are a lot of variables to play around with.  Let us know how it goes.

[BrainTannedKiwi]

23 hours ago, TomE said:

A slightly damp edge will help the fibers compress into a smooth surface and a bit of lubricant (saddle soap, conditioner, etc) helps prevent overheating with the power burnisher.  Need to find the right balance of moisture and friction to get the results you want.  You sure can use beeswax or gumtrag to finish, but I find it easier to get a smooth, hard, shiney edge with Tokonole.  I am guessing it is essentially glue in some type of slippery vehicle, probably silicone based like cyclomethicone used in hair products.  A wax treatment might be a better choice for sealing the edge for outdoor use but it is more work and doesn't shine like Tokonole.  For horse tack there's an expectation that it will be maintained by cleaning, conditioning and occasional oiling so I am not aiming to seal the leather.  There are a lot of variables to play around with.  Let us know how it goes.

Yea right so saddle soap is just a lubricant that makes sense i need to go get some and should have the burnisher made this week. Yea i like the idea of using beeswax also because i think my customers will like the idea of using natural products (as do i). Do you make many belts? or just horsey stuff.

[TomE]

1 hour ago, BrainTannedKiwi said:

Yea right so saddle soap is just a lubricant that makes sense i need to go get some and should have the burnisher made this week. Yea i like the idea of using beeswax also because i think my customers will like the idea of using natural products (as do i). Do you make many belts? or just horsey stuff.

I haven't made many belts and not surprisingly they turned out looking like horse tack.   If you plan to seal edges with beeswax you might look into using heat to help the wax penetrate the leather.  I use Duane Watts' lollipop burnisher that I heat with an alcohol lamp.  The video from Cary Schwarz shows an edge iron that I think he made.   Similar to a Dixon edge iron.

 

[BrainTannedKiwi]

2 minutes ago, TomE said:

I haven't made many belts and not surprisingly they turned out looking like horse tack.   If you plan to seal edges with beeswax you might look into using heat to help the wax penetrate the leather.  I use Duane Watts' lollipop burnisher that I heat with an alcohol lamp.  The video from Cary Schwarz shows an edge iron that I think he made.   Similar to a Dixon edge iron.

 

thats very satisfying i could easily make something like that at work aswell, and maybe can be applied to the leather with a power burnisher 

[dikman]

I've only used beeswax to burnish edges, partly because it's what I had handy and just seemed like a good idea. I wipe a cake of beeswax along the edge then onto the high speed burnisher, it may take a couple of applications but seems to work ok. I've tried the dampen-the-edge-with-water thing, sometimes it works, sometimes it mushrooms the edge.

I've been contemplating making another burnishing wheel out of aluminium (just 'cos I can and I like turning aluminium on the lathe ) and make it a long one with lots more different groove sizes.

[BrainTannedKiwi]

On 5/12/2024 at 2:07 PM, TomE said:

I haven't made many belts and not surprisingly they turned out looking like horse tack.   If you plan to seal edges with beeswax you might look into using heat to help the wax penetrate the leather.  I use Duane Watts' lollipop burnisher that I heat with an alcohol lamp.  The video from Cary Schwarz shows an edge iron that I think he made.   Similar to a Dixon edge iron.

 

 

On 5/13/2024 at 11:07 AM, dikman said:

I've only used beeswax to burnish edges, partly because it's what I had handy and just seemed like a good idea. I wipe a cake of beeswax along the edge then onto the high speed burnisher, it may take a couple of applications but seems to work ok. I've tried the dampen-the-edge-with-water thing, sometimes it works, sometimes it mushrooms the edge.

I've been contemplating making another burnishing wheel out of aluminium (just 'cos I can and I like turning aluminium on the lathe ) and make it a long one with lots more different groove sizes.

yea imma try saddle soap just because it might be a bit quicker. yea turning ally is satisfying haha i just turned my own burnisher on the bench grinder that im using, means it turns pretty true to the wonky shaft it has. i still need to find a good way to burnish flesh side as the leather im getting can be quite fluffy

[TomE]

18 minutes ago, BrainTannedKiwi said:

 

yea imma try saddle soap just because it might be a bit quicker. yea turning ally is satisfying haha i just turned my own burnisher on the bench grinder that im using, means it turns pretty true to the wonky shaft it has. i still need to find a good way to burnish flesh side as the leather im getting can be quite fluffy

I've used this water soluble flexible adhesive for sealing the flesh side of leather https://campbell-randall.com/product/sup-bt639-g-leather-finish-for-sealing-flesh-side-moss-back-suede-1-gal.  Tokonole also works.   Can also apply wax with a heat gun.  A glass slicker is useful for burnishing the flesh side.

[BrainTannedKiwi]

1 minute ago, TomE said:

I've used this water soluble flexible adhesive for sealing the flesh side of leather https://campbell-randall.com/product/sup-bt639-g-leather-finish-for-sealing-flesh-side-moss-back-suede-1-gal.  Tokonole also works.   Can also apply wax with a heat gun.  A glass slicker is useful for burnishing the flesh side.

i made the burnisher today and its working there is one side with groove and one side flat, the flat side im not so sure about but groove works well. Yea ill see how much freight costs to new zealand how is the moss sealing solution applied?

[TomE]

29 minutes ago, BrainTannedKiwi said:

i made the burnisher today and its working there is one side with groove and one side flat, the flat side im not so sure about but groove works well. Yea ill see how much freight costs to new zealand how is the moss sealing solution applied?

I use a sponge or a wool dauber to apply BT639 then slick the surface with glass.  Moss-back refers to the glue that tannerys used in the past for finishing the back of bridle leather - made from peat moss.  I bought a slicker with smooth rounded edges from Springfield Leather Co.   BT639 is available in quarts if you contact Campbell-Randall.  You might try Tokonole first if it is more readily available.

Edited Tuesday at 11:45 AM by TomE