"Grade A" HO 8/9 from Springfield looks terrible

[palehorse]

Hi, everyone.  Up to recently, I've been buying my veg tan sides from Tandy because they are available locally; and I can pick them out by hand.  However, I wanted to give HO a try for the first time.  I decided to buy from SLC via mail-order.  At $315 for a side plus $19 shipping, it was quite a chunk of change; but I really wanted to see what all the fuss was about.  I received my shipment with great excitement yesterday; but when I opened the box, my heart dropped.  I've attached some pics, but the lighting and photos really don't do it justice... the leather is dirty, scuffed, marked, scraped, discolored, wrinkled, etc.  Heck, the condition of the flesh side looks better than the "good" side.  Obviously the belly area is a waste, which is fine, but basically I would have a hard time finding a section large enough to to cut something the size of a journal cover that didn't have at least one noticeable blem.  There aren't any holes, and the weight seems pretty even throughout; but cosmetically, this stuff isn't anywhere near as visually acceptable as even the economy stuff I could get from Tandy at a third the price.  I find it hard to believe that anyone who cares about the quality of their products enough to actually spend the premium for grade A would find this to be even remotely acceptable, and I really feel like a vendor the size of Springfield would know this.

I'm so disappointed... this is not only an expensive lesson to learn, but I was really looking forward to carving on the best of the best.  As far as I know, nothing on Springfield's website would indicate that I would not be paying the cost for shipping back returns out of my pocket.  Throwing good money after bad is hard to stomach.  As it was the weekend, I haven't called them yet; but I did send an online message.  No response yet, of course.

Like I said, I wish the photos better represented how this stuff looks; but you should be able to get the general impression... everything that looks like a blemish in the photos looks twice as bad in real life.  In your experiences, am I being unreasonable for grade A at this price?  What kind of expectations should I have if I give them a call to discuss the situation?  What outcome should I be pushing for?  Exchange, return, or just eat this leather as a ridiculously expensive supply of practice stock?  I'm not a pro, and I mostly make items for friends and family.  Quite frankly, I would be embarrassed to give them anything with such bad looking surface finish... really, unless I'm doing a piece with 100% tooling coverage or dying it dark, this stuff is definitely not going to be useable to make anything I wan't other people to see.  Any advice y'all could provide to a newbie like me would be greatly appreciated!  Thanks in advance.

Edited June 2, 2024 by palehorse

[bladegrinder]

I’ve had the same experience, I’ll explain later this evening when I’m on my laptop.

[FrankHester]

The first and only time so far in my 8-month leather career of leatherworking that I have used HO was at the Rocky Mountain Leather Show in Sheridan a couple weeks ago.

I thought it was noticeably different in a good way from the economy and standard grades I had tooled on so far and which I will still use.  I did hear some of the more experienced students say that HO was subject to batch to batch or year to year or whatever variances that were not always good. But not one person thought of not using HO.

I look forward to my first HO purchase sometime in the future but until then I will keep plugging away on what I have. 

I did hear that Tandy's upper levels were quite nice also and I look forward to using them also.  

Hope this helps a little at least,

Frank 

 

 

[palehorse]

1 hour ago, bladegrinder said:

I’ve had the same experience, I’ll explain later this evening when I’m on my laptop.

I look forward to reading it.  Much appreciated.

1 hour ago, Herbie said:

The first and only time so far in my 8-month leather career of leatherworking that I have used HO was at the Rocky Mountain Leather Show in Sheridan a couple weeks ago.

I thought it was noticeably different in a good way from the economy and standard grades I had tooled on so far and which I will still use.  I did hear some of the more experienced students say that HO was subject to batch to batch or year to year or whatever variances that were not always good. But not one person thought of not using HO.

I look forward to my first HO purchase sometime in the future but until then I will keep plugging away on what I have. 

I did hear that Tandy's upper levels were quite nice also and I look forward to using them also.  

Hope this helps a little at least,

Frank 

 

 

I live in DFW and can actually go to Tandy's flagship store in Ft Worth over a lunch break at work so it was the natural option when hunting for leather that I can pick out in person.  I don't know that I'd buy it sight unseen as there is some variety in quality levels that I've found in their stores, but I can pretty easily find some really nice looking sides and double shoulders when I shop in person.  It tools pretty well, but I've never used HO or W&C so I can't compare.  From what I've heard from others, and based on comparing things like their tools vs what I get from Barry King, I think they are probably a solid mid-tier option that is proportionate to what you pay to get it.  I don't seem to get a lot of the natural burnishing that I see when I watch videos of people carving HO online.  I chalk that up to a lower level of quality in the tanning process, but it's not anything that isn't remedied when I antique the finished piece anyway.

This experience from Springfield was so disheartening.  Like I said, I was really looking forward to finally carving on a piece of grade A HO.  When I opened the package and saw the leather, not only was it a financial hit, but it was an emotional one, too.

[FrankHester]

4 minutes ago, palehorse said:

I look forward to reading it.  Much appreciated.

I live in DFW and can actually go to Tandy's flagship store in Ft Worth over a lunch break at work so it was the natural option when hunting for leather that I can pick out in person.  I don't know that I'd buy it sight unseen as there is some variety in quality levels that I've found in their stores, but I can pretty easily find some really nice looking sides and double shoulders when I shop in person.  It tools pretty well, but I've never used HO or W&C so I can't compare.  From what I've heard from others, and based on comparing things like their tools vs what I get from Barry King, I think they are probably a solid mid-tier option that is proportionate to what you pay to get it.  I don't seem to get a lot of the natural burnishing that I see when I watch videos of people carving HO online.  I chalk that up to a lower level of quality in the tanning process, but it's not anything that isn't remedied when I antique the finished piece anyway.

This experience from Springfield was so disheartening.  Like I said, I was really looking forward to finally carving on a piece of grade A HO.  When I opened the package and saw the leather, not only was it a financial hit, but it was an emotional one, too.

I feel for you, that is a tough hit for sure. I would see what kind of return deal you can get with SLC.

I will say using BK tools on the HO leather made me appreciate both.  

[bladegrinder]

Call Springfield leather Monday, they will email you a prepaid return label to stick on the box and send it back. you can get your money back or they'll send you another piece.

Personally I'm finished buying leather from them. years ago I ordered 10-12 sq. ft of B grade. I was doing a knife show in about a month and had to make some sheaths, while the hair side was OK most of the flesh side was black. it looked like it got caught in the skiver machine or something but it was totally unacceptable. I called and asked how did this even make it out their door? crickets....sorry sir we can give you your money back or send a new piece. they sent a new piece that was OK but the turn around time made things a hassle for me.

Forward about 3 months ago I ordered 12 sq. ft. of B grade 8-9 oz. I picked up 3 orders for holsters, previously I had been using 6-7 0z and wanted to use thicker leather moving forward.

the piece I received looked like yours but had a gaping hole in it and truthfully looked like this cow had been hit in one area with birdshot from a shotgun. I called and again asked how did this make it out your doors? got a nice young lady explain how leather can have defects..yada, yada.....do I want a refund or a replacement, I'd like a replacement if it won't look like this, so the replacement come and while it was acceptable in my opinion it was below 'craftsman' grade and again set my timeline back on getting the holsters done.

My way of thinking is these pieces are getting passed over by people going into their store to buy leather, so, what to do with it?......mail orders. hoping some people will just bite the bullet and accept it.

I'm not slamming Springfield leather just telling my experience with buying leather from them, which I won't do anymore.

I think my next order of leather will come directly from Wicket and Craig, over the phone and explaining what I want and that I'm willing to pay for good leather.

 

[palehorse]

If I can get them to pay the freight for return shipping, I'll be less salty about it... I guess we'll see what they say.  Unfortunately, I have already disposed of the box.  (Although if all I have to pay for is a new box, that's a small sacrifice to get this rectified.)  You might be right about what is happening with these subpar sides going out the door.  I don't have the energy to go full Karen on anyone over the phone, but I can't see how I'll be okay with ordering leather sight unseen any more unless I hear a ton of positive reviews from people that I trust know the difference.  I work in supply chain / procurement, so the last thing I feel like doing is dealing with this type of thing in my personal life when I spend a lot of my day doing it at work.  

AFAIK, HO has a significant minimum order quantity so that won't work for me.  I don't know if Weaver is any better.  They sell HO but don't list the grade.  It's only specified as "tannery run", which seems like a great way for a vendor to say they just sent you the best of what they have in stock, even if it's not good.  If W&C (or anyone) will sell one or two sides at a time, I'm game.  However, I can't justify more than that since I'm not in business; and anything I sell is from someone saying "hey, that's cool... where did you get that?"  That's also why blowing almost $350 on an ugly side that I had such high expectations for hurts.  If I was in person and it was sitting on a table with a sign that said "Economy / Craftsman Grade -- $150", I probably still would have passed because I just can't use it for anything I make and have reasonable hope of churning out a quality item.  Maybe if I was making keychains and willing to have a lot of waste.

Thanks, guys, for letting me bounce my thoughts off you.  The only leather I've ever bought online before has been exotics that I can't find locally at Tandy, and even those have been a little disappointing from time to time.  I personally try to live by the idea of under-promise & over-deliver.  Seems like m

[WendlingKnives]

Hello from the other side of DFW (between McKinney and Greenville). w&c will sell sides one at a time. And I think im only paying about 250/side from wc for drum dyed 8 and 10 oz sides. Give them a call when you get your money back from SLC

Edited June 3, 2024 by WendlingKnives

[jrdunn]

@palehorse & @WendlingKnives,  For you and other DFW guys, you might look into Makers Leather Supply.  They are north of Waco.  I haven't visited their store but have ordered from them.  They have treated me right.  It seems to me like overall leather prices have went up and quality has went down in the last few years.  If I were closer, I would definitely visit their store.  JM2C,  Jim

https://makersleathersupply.com/

Edited June 3, 2024 by jrdunn
To include link

[palehorse]

10 hours ago, WendlingKnives said:

Hello from the other side of DFW (between McKinney and Greenville). w&c will sell sides one at a time. And I think im only paying about 250/side from wc for drum dyed 8 and 10 oz sides. Give them a call when you get your money back from SLC

I'm actually in Frisco / Plano, so not too far from you.  I ride my motorcycle out your way all the time.  I'll check out what W&C say.

2 hours ago, jrdunn said:

@palehorse & @WendlingKnives,  For you and other DFW guys, you might look into Makers Leather Supply.  They are north of Waco.  I haven't visited their store but have ordered from them.  They have treated me right.  It seems to me like overall leather prices have went up and quality has went down in the last few years.  If I were closer, I would definitely visit their store.  JM2C,  Jim

https://makersleathersupply.com/

I've seen some of their videos on YT.  I didn't know they were local... good to know and definitely will look into them.  Thanks.

[Cumberland Highpower]

Actually, your side looks ok to me.  From the photo it looks like an A grade piece that came from SLc with a  couple added pallet rack scuffs and a little short term warehouse dusting.  Normal in the trade to a degree..........

The honest truth, is that ALL leather isn't as good as it was 10 years ago.

Depending on what you make, HO leather is the best on the market.  Its' firm, consistent in weight, has been rolled (having a smooth surface) and takes dye and water very well.  (Evenly).  It also dries quicker than most other leathers.  They also tend to grade it better when splitting.

In this country, Only Wickett and craig is close.  W&c isn't as firm and tends to stretch more.

I'd say the worst downhill slide is that Chahin that Weaver sells.   Before covid it was ok.  Now I'm looking elsewhere.

Veg tanned leather tends to have blems, scars, wrinkles, etc.  After you use a few thousand sides, you'll realize what you received is actually looking pretty good.

Bellies are filler/junk/liner, shoulders are used for items that take the neck wrinkles well.  Your bend is usually pretty clean, maybe a brand.  HO looks at the bend area first, then shoulder.  Weight wise, I think they allow 1/2oz +/-  

I haven't shopped at SLC,  but I do find that price rather high.  Wholesale pricing should be around $250.

 

When you dye/work/tool this leather the looks will be more to your liking.  You mentioned you didn't like the finish? It doesn't have a finish....That will be your job.   If you don't like this piece, you probably should look into a different tannage/leather,  something chrome tanned with an aniline top coat.   No other tannery will produce a cleaner, smoother veg tanned leather at any sort of affordable price than HO

 

 

Edited June 3, 2024 by Cumberland Highpower

[palehorse]

I just got off the phone with their general manager.  He's a really nice guy.  We went through a lengthy conversation about the leather, the condition, etc.  Based on what I'm gathering, he's saying that the scuffs, burnish marks, etc. are just an artifact of handling and can't be avoided.  He also said that the wrinkles and other issues of that sort are more due to the fact that HO (and other domestic tanneries) are limited to using some extremely large cattle... this isn't the case with imported hides from smaller animals that will have shorter lives, less size, and less inconsistencies in the visuals of the leather.  Honestly, it all sounds reasonable.

That being said, he said that the discoloration in the photos isn't something that is acceptable and warrants a return / exchange.  However, I was told that he didn't want to just replace it with something else that I"m going to complain was almost the same as what I returned.  I asked him to grab a side that he was personally comfortable was a fair representation of what SLC could provide as graded A by HO, inspect and approve it, and send it over.  I want to be reasonable and I also want to know what to expect in the future.  At the risk of spending $$ on something that will disappoint me, taking this course of action is a learning experience, I guess.  If the replacement comes in looking very similar, which it very well might, I guess I will actually carve up a piece and see how it goes.  Like Cumberland said above, perhaps I need to actually use it and see what it produces.  As I said, I don't want to come off as unreasonable... so I'll do that much and then decide if it works for me or not.  My personal experience is limited to buying hides from various Tandy locations.  I've seen lots of hides and bought lots of hides, but if they all fit into the framework of what SLC's manager said above about imported veg tan, I guess it would make sense that it is more "clean and even" in appearance in the shop.

Thanks again for your input, everyone; as well as providing alternatives in case the HO doesn't work.  I have a reasonable amount of experience for a hobbyist, but I'm not a pro and have a lot to learn so I welcome the advice.  I would also say that I'm impressed with the treatment I got from the staff at Springfield.  I wasn't thrilled with the side (right or wrong, it's yet to be seen); but they are doing all the right things so far.  Even if I don't end up deciding that buying future leather from them is the right thing for me personally, I wouldn't have a problem purchasing other related goods from them.  I do wish I had two or three grand laying around to place a direct order with HO for a bunch of sides... that would probably be enough leather to last me years.  

[Doc Reaper]

I don't know what grade you order but from where I'm sitting it looks like number two possibly a number three, I had a problem with Tandy where they sent me a side of Leather, but the hole in it was big enough for two large men to fit through Drew was manager at that time. We all have to go through it. When you get a chance, just give him a call on the phone. Tell em what you got. 

[HandyDave]

A place I have used many times online that doesn't get brought up very often is Frogjelly Leather. They are near fort worth and I think they have a store front. Might be worth checking out 

[Mablung]

31 minutes ago, HandyDave said:

A place I have used many times online that doesn't get brought up very often is Frogjelly Leather. They are near fort worth and I think they have a store front. Might be worth checking out 

The business certainly has an attention-demanding name. 

[CdK]

14 hours ago, jrdunn said:

@palehorse & @WendlingKnives,  For you and other DFW guys, you might look into Makers Leather Supply.  They are north of Waco.  I haven't visited their store but have ordered from them.  They have treated me right.  It seems to me like overall leather prices have went up and quality has went down in the last few years.  If I were closer, I would definitely visit their store.  JM2C,  Jim

https://makersleathersupply.com/

I have been a player in the crapshoot that is online ordering of leather. I recently did a road trip and visited Makers Leather Supply and left there with a good feeling, loaded truck and lighter wallet. Being able to select your own hides/sides in the warehouse and the helpful, welcoming, knowledgeable and friendly attitude of the staff was refreshing.

I went through a number of HO sides and all of them were way better than any veg tan I had ever seen at my local Tandy store. Their offerings of what they call Texas Oak is also very good. They stock a large variety of other types of hides as well.

I live about 6 hours travel from their warehouse but I would do the trip again, if needed. If you are in need of any leather and cannot stop in yourself, call them and explain what you are looking for.

[Cattleman]

I can speak from experience... Most all blemishes can be hidden with tooling. My first HO side was an "Economy Grade" from SLC... It had many bot marks, a few butcher cuts, and the entire but had a signifcant amount of rawhide left in it on the flesh side.

 

Even with all that ive never been able to see even a flicker of thise blemishes once it was tooled... And the rawhide in the butt turned out to work EXCELLENT for pancake knife sheaths, I've even had a couple customers say those sheaths "click" almost better than a molded Kydex sheath.

[Hags]

Goliger leather in California sells HO. Reasonably priced, and the branded hides are a bargain. Some of the brands are cool and I can work them into a note book cover or some thing. You'll  have to call them, you can see product and pricing online,  it's cant order online. Tell Cheryl that Gary in Sequim sent you. Ask for some HO tags and stickers. They'll include them for free. Cheryl explained to me that any stores buy large tannery runs and grade them themselves.  They buy A and B grades from HO. I buy the branded a and b grades and while not perfect, they are very nice in my opinion.

[CNHLeather]

I know I'm late to the party but yeah as far as SLC I used to buy 90% of my leather from them before the pandemic usually HO single shoulders and harness by the foot as I'm just a hobbist.  But during the pandemic i bought a cobra 26 from them and some HO by the foot and a couple of shoulders and man i was extremely disappointed  both shoulders were oxidized and a dark pink color and 1 looked like it had been shot with bird shot.  i haven't bought anything from them in a while infact the best piece of leather i have ever received was from a FB live sale and it was supposedly a HO reject.  Makers in Waco has never disappointed me nor has Traditions in OKC and if im on a budget Frogjelly   

[Sheilajeanne]

This is why I'm so disappointed that the local Tandy's (a 30 minute drive away) closed down recently. There's no substitute for being able to pick a piece of leather in person. Even then, I found when Tandy had their sales, you had to get there early if you wanted a really nice piece!