is this the right machine for me?

[Art]

Ray,

If you plan to do holsters, especially the Cowboy/Western style then a bigger machine is necessary. I just measured one of mine, classic Cheyenne for a Peacemaker (.45 Colt). The welt at the largest point was just a little under 5/8 inch; and this is by no means the largest I have done, but kind of average for a double and stitched holster. The minimum machine for that is an Artisan 3000. A Pfaff 245 or 1245 or Ferdco 1245 might do it, but you are right at the edge. I like to use 277 thread or at a minimum 207 and that is the limit for those machines also. The Artisan 3000 or the Ferdco 1010 will do the job with room to spare. So will any of the bigger and more expensive machines. A used Singer 153 class will also do the job, but like I have said with used machines you have to know what you are doing, in other words, first machine should be a new machine.

Any other questions, please ask here in the forum for everyones benefit.

Art

Ray,

I'll answer this on the forum.

Art

Ray,

It is a Singer Model 29, not sure of the sub model but and early one probably a 40, circa 1920s. This is shoe patching machine and they due sell in the 300-500 range, condition is the thing. However, this is not the greatest machine for a general leatherworker, but for more of a shoe repairman. You could spend your money a lot better, but buying used machines can have its downsides if you don't have experience with sewing machines. What is your experience and what are you planning to use the machine fot.

Art

If you'll visit my web-site real quick you can get an idea of the things I've been doing as of late. But I would like to get into some larger type projects like gun holsters, horse tack, etc. where hand stitching can get pretty old fast.

I don't get along very well with sewing machines and I thought maybe a Boss Tippman would be best suited for me because of the slow moving parts.

I'm just a hobbiest and don't intend to make this like work, plus I don't have a lot of bucks to invest in machinery.

This old Singer looked like something I saw in a tack repair shop so I thought I would check it out. But if you don't think it fits me, I'll take your word for it. And I certainly don't want to get into something that is in constant need of repair.

Thanks for your help.

Rick (Rayban)

rgleather.freehomepage.com

[skipj]

I used both a 3000 and 4000 at last years Wickenburg show and liked them both. I didn't get a chance to sew bullet loops with either because I never had used a leather sewing machine before and we were trying to get everyones holster and belt done in 3 days starting from scratch. As a hobbyist I have a problem with the extra $1000 the 4000 costs. It is awkward to sew the loops with the Artisan 3000 because of the narrow throat. In fact, I don't remember for sure if belt loops were done on the 3000. I guess I should talk to Artisan and get their opinion.

SkipJ

[bcurrier]

... As a hobbyist I have a problem with the extra $1000 the 4000 costs. It is awkward to sew the loops with the Artisan 3000 because of the narrow throat ...

SkipJ

My thoughts exactly and the subject of another thread. I'm calling Artisan today for pricing on a 4000 (with accessories) today, though. I'm leaning toward Artisan, but am looking at competing machines (clones) locally also. Any of the larger industrial sewing suppliers can come up with branded, off-branded, unbranded, misc., new or used clones for any machine type. The honest ones will actually tell you what they think of them. One local dealer brings in an Adler 205-370 knock-off that he likes (and sells for about $1500 less than the Adler), for example, and often has one on the floor setup and sewn-off to try. He can also get the Seiko CH-8B for significantly less than Hoffman in Chicago or Campbell-Bosworth.

Bill

[Luke Hatley]

Bill. I have the 205-370 SEWMO that i bought from

Industial Sewing Sales in Ohio.

It is a fine machine. saddle repair, holsters and knife sheaths

and heavy duty bags. I have had no problems with it.

Don or Darrin has been very helpful with my questions

about the operations of it.

[papabear]

I've made holsters for about 25 years and I have always used an Adler harness machine (german made) I got from an auction at Weaver Leather in Ohio. They usually have an open auction once a year in the summer but have some good deals all the time. Some of the stitching on special holsters especially on compitition quick draws where you use spring steal and galvanized steel pieces stitched in can be pretty demanding. Get more machine than you need not less.

[skipj]

Luke is this the place?

http://www.sewingmachinesales.com/

Or is it the place in Toledo?

SkipJ

[Luke Hatley]

YES THAT IS THE ONE.. I DID LOOK AT A LOT OF MACHINES

BEFORE I BOUGHT. 3 SADDLEMAKERS HERE IN MEMPHIS.

TOLD ME IF I COULD NOT AFFORD AN ADLER, GO FOR A COPY.

LIKE I SAID DON OR DARRIN ARE THE BEST.......

[skipj]

Luke is this the place?

http://www.sewingmachinesales.com/

Or is it the place in Toledo?

SkipJ

[skipj]

Here is the date for the Weaver Auction 2008:

July 16-17: Weaver Auction in Mt. Hope, OH. (330) 674-7548.

SkipJ

[bcurrier]

I placed the order with Artisan today for a 4000R, including heavy duty stand, various feet, blanket set, holster plate, swing out guide, extra needles, bobbins, and some thread ... and the new needle positioning motor. Turns out I'll be the first customer out of the gate on the motor. While normally I might be a bit concerned about that, in Artisan's case I'm willing to give it a try due to their stellar reputation.

As an FYI, Artisan's current shipment is held up in customs (Homeland Security inspection) and is not expected to be released until next week. This includes their first shipment of the new needle positioning motor. The synchronizers that enable the positioning haven't been shipped yet, but the motor functions as a normal servo motor without it. The HP of the positioning motor is also slightly higher (5/8ths) vs. Artisan's standard servo motor (1/2).

I don't expect to have the machine for about 2 weeks. I'll post results when it's here!

Bill

[bcurrier]

Just to be clear, the extras mentioned are NOT included in the price of a machine with Artisan. The stand, positioning motor, feet, etc. are all optional accessories, as they are with Ferdco and other suppliers, for that matter.

Bill

[Art]

Hi Bill,

There is plenty of profit in those machines, for any purchase, you need to warm-up the old Monte Hall "Let's Make a Deal" machine.

For the uninitiated, you do it right before you write the check. It goes something like this. You decide what machine you want, and what accessories you will need. You then say, "Ok, we can do this deal right now if you throw-in this, this, this, and this." They may counter with, "Well we can give you this, this, and this, but that thing will cost xxx.xx extra." You can of course counter with something else. You don't have to be William Shatner to negotiate. Remember, you laid the groundwork with the first sentence, we can do this deal IF. If you stick to your guns, you mean you won't do this deal if they don't give you something.

This is all negotiating 101 and is something you just have to learn on big ticket items. The sewing machine dealers know how the game goes, it's just a dance you have to learn.

Art

Just to be clear, the extras mentioned are NOT included in the price of a machine with Artisan. The stand, positioning motor, feet, etc. are all optional accessories, as they are with Ferdco and other suppliers, for that matter.

Bill

[Lindsay John Ross]

I have been making holsters for close to 30 years now and am always surprized at the attention needle feed machines get on these forums. Am I the only one in the universe that thinks that if you are going to attempt holster or any heavy duty gear manufacture , then you are going to need a needle awl machine. I have been through many needle machines in my earlier days only to find that if you want the best stitch and a machine capable of sewing up to an inch thickness, then these are the ones to look for. I am aware of the cost of most needle awl machines but cost aside you cant beat them for the stitch they make ( and that includes hand stitching as well)

[bcurrier]

I have been making holsters for close to 30 years now and am always surprized at the attention needle feed machines get on these forums. Am I the only one in the universe that thinks that if you are going to attempt holster or any heavy duty gear manufacture , then you are going to need a needle awl machine. I have been through many needle machines in my earlier days only to find that if you want the best stitch and a machine capable of sewing up to an inch thickness, then these are the ones to look for. I am aware of the cost of most needle awl machines but cost aside you cant beat them for the stitch they make ( and that includes hand stitching as well)

Maybe you are, given that a lot of people are making holsters and heavy gear with needle feed machines. (Most are technically compound or unison feed, though). I suspect most such gear is made with compound feed machines. So, where's the "need"?

Compound feed machines work well, deliver a very nice stitch, and are far more flexible in terms of setup and range of capabilities. The latter items are critical considerations for non-professional users.

"Cost aside" doesn't really work as an argument when the price difference is multiples.

[bruce johnson]

Lindsay,

I know we had this discussion on another list as well. I am agreeing with you that a properly setup needle and awl machine will do a tighter stitch with less fuss and looks better. If I knew more about the mechanics, and parts and support were not quite the issue I would probably have one. Other than Campbell-Bosworth and Weaver selling the reconditioned models, is there anyone else? In my area, to buy a used one is fairly easy. To buy one that may not be the 600# anchor is the question. A lot of these older shops have a couple sitting around - one they use and one for parts. They have been patched, wired, and taped together. Other than packing it up and freighting it to Texas or Illinois, not much available for help. The old guys that can work on these machines are mostly retired or passed on. I see that as the issue for me. With the short arm needle feeds selling for around $2000, they have made that market more affordable for more casual users. The long arm big brother machines are the logical step up for most people then. The support is there, parts and accessories are a day or two away, and that is the popularity. I think the needs of the manufacturer vs the casual user is the key here.

One thing I have done since we talked last. I sold the Adler 205. I have two 2000s right now. One newer one and one when they still built on the Juki frame. I normally sew in a narrower and deeper groove. I run a tighter bobbin tension, a tighter top tension, and can usually get by with one size smaller needle on new work than most use. It makes a pretty good stitch and smaller needle hole. Not a good needle &awl stitch but closer. Better than a bad needle and awl stitch. I haven't tapped or rubbed any stitch lines in quite a while. It will pucker chap leather, so I have to back off a little there. On some of the harder leather on repairs, I have to move up a needle, but those holes are generally already there.

[Art]

Hi LJR,

Some of what you are saying I can agree with. Better stitch, yes, that much better, real hard to see. For someone who does less than production work, the needle and awl machine might just be more than they can (or really want to) handle. The threaded needle machines (because most HD leather stitcher and needle and awl machines are needle feed) are a lot easier to conceptualize and to learn then their needle and awl counterparts, most using 100 or more year old technology and unfortunately parts, the Campbell, Randall, and Union being the only ones with companies still manufacturing parts. Also, some of that 100 or more year old technology should have been replaced by newer methodologies, but they haven't been because of the volume of machines used by industry; the jump foot on the Campbell comes to mind. For the most part, the average Joe or Josephine wants to go to his machine the 5 or 6 times a week that he uses it for a few minutes each time and have it work for an initial purchase price of less than three grand. When things get to not working properly, he wants to be able to fix it himself, and believe me, few of the current crop of leatherworkers are sewing machine mechanics. In fact, there are scant few real sewing machine mechanics I would trust with my Campbell.

Then we must remember that the majority of leatherworkers are multi discipline, they want to use different size thread on different materials, and they want a fast changeover, mind you with just a little experience, that has not been the forte of the needle and awl and is where the threaded needle shines. For holster welts all day, give me a Campbell or Union, add in checkbook covers, belts, purses, and tack and the threaded needle machine looks better, especially for a one machine shop. If I could have one machine, I doubt it would be a needle and awl.

Art

I have been making holsters for close to 30 years now and am always surprized at the attention needle feed machines get on these forums. Am I the only one in the universe that thinks that if you are going to attempt holster or any heavy duty gear manufacture , then you are going to need a needle awl machine. I have been through many needle machines in my earlier days only to find that if you want the best stitch and a machine capable of sewing up to an inch thickness, then these are the ones to look for. I am aware of the cost of most needle awl machines but cost aside you cant beat them for the stitch they make ( and that includes hand stitching as well)

[Lindsay John Ross]

Absolutely right Art. My operation is a 20 man factory. We dont use needle machines and only operate needle awl machines. I know for a fact that when something goes wrong it is a mission in itself to correct especially with the Unions we have, but over the years we have become a lot smarter in correcting these machines. To be said, the Unions are the real beasts when it comes to repairing. At present we run 3 Unions and 3 Campbells. We have discovered that these are the best for bulk manufacturing which we do. I agree when making thinner items as wallets etc a needle feed machine will work better. Ascan be seen in the attachment ( if it comes through) the small hole between the stitch is the appealing part of needle awl machines to me but I have seen good stitches made with a needle feed when the stitch is dampened and flattened with a smoothing tool. To Bruce.............. I read yor reply and am interested to know adresses or email adresses of anyone selling used Campbells or the like if you could helpGreat forum this. Lindsay

[Art]

Hi Lindsay,

I have seen a Campbell occasionally on the Ferdco website in the used for sale section, they are around $4500 which may be looking better with the exchange rate or about 30,500 Rand I think. Of course prices on these things are usually negotiable.

Art

Absolutely right Art. My operation is a 20 man factory. We dont use needle machines and only operate needle awl machines. I know for a fact that when something goes wrong it is a mission in itself to correct especially with the Unions we have, but over the years we have become a lot smarter in correcting these machines. To be said, the Unions are the real beasts when it comes to repairing. At present we run 3 Unions and 3 Campbells. We have discovered that these are the best for bulk manufacturing which we do. I agree when making thinner items as wallets etc a needle feed machine will work better. Ascan be seen in the attachment ( if it comes through) the small hole between the stitch is the appealing part of needle awl machines to me but I have seen good stitches made with a needle feed when the stitch is dampened and flattened with a smoothing tool. To Bruce.............. I read yor reply and am interested to know adresses or email adresses of anyone selling used Campbells or the like if you could helpGreat forum this. Lindsay

[esantoro]

That is some very nice stitching with the needle and awl machine. I recently noticed that I can get something similar with a serv 1 needle on a 794 system cylinder arm machine. I had been using diamond point needles, but due to chance ended up with the serv 1 needles. I think I'll also be trying the reverse twist needles.

ed

[gtwister09]

Lindsay,

It's been a while... I have seen them for sale used on the following sites.

http://www.campbell-bosworth.com/

http://www.ferdco.com/

Regards,

Ben

[Lindsay John Ross]

Thanx for the feedback. I see you know about our exchange rate Art......

[esantoro]

here's stitching from a juki 441 clone, 277 thread, #25 Schmetz serv 1 point.

ed

[bruce johnson]

Ed,

You may have mentioned this before, but I missed it. Whose version of a 441 do you have? Look like the pics you attached are sewn on some sort of latigo? I may be comparing apples and oranges here. Neither of my 2000s track like that on the top. Also there is nothing on the bottoms to make the tracks either. My throat plates are all smooth, and the lower feed never hits the leather. There might be some excess pressure on the top side, or the feet are not meeting the leather level and toeing/heeling down. I have some belts to do in the next couple days. I'll set up mine with the same size thread and needle and get some pictures.

[esantoro]

Bruce,

I have Ryan Neel's (Neel's Saddlery) Model 6.

The pics are of two layers of 5/7 oz Indian Tan Latigo. I'm using the standard blanket foot that the machine came with. Perhaps I should be backing off on the presser foot tension. I also am using the standard needle plate with the extreuding feed dog, which does leave light tracks. In a day or two, I should be receiving the slotted needle plate and the stirrup plate. I'm wondering if I'll need to adjust the presser foot height when I start using the raised needle plate. The problem is that I'll need to switch quite frequently between the stirrup plate for gusset work and the flat slotted plate for flat work (belts, lining, trim). I'm beginning to think about how nice it would be to have an additional machine, something like the Toro 3000...Yes.....That would be nice. Someday....

Ed

[esantoro]

Bruce and Art,

I noticed that the toes on the blanket foot do not touch the needle plate at any time, though the middle walking foot does. With my narrow harness makers foot, both the toes and the center foot do touch the needle plate. Do you have the same experience with your equipment?

Ed