is this the right machine for me?

[bcurrier]

Just to be clear, the extras mentioned are NOT included in the price of a machine with Artisan. The stand, positioning motor, feet, etc. are all optional accessories, as they are with Ferdco and other suppliers, for that matter.

Bill

[Art]

Hi Bill,

There is plenty of profit in those machines, for any purchase, you need to warm-up the old Monte Hall "Let's Make a Deal" machine.

For the uninitiated, you do it right before you write the check. It goes something like this. You decide what machine you want, and what accessories you will need. You then say, "Ok, we can do this deal right now if you throw-in this, this, this, and this." They may counter with, "Well we can give you this, this, and this, but that thing will cost xxx.xx extra." You can of course counter with something else. You don't have to be William Shatner to negotiate. Remember, you laid the groundwork with the first sentence, we can do this deal IF. If you stick to your guns, you mean you won't do this deal if they don't give you something.

This is all negotiating 101 and is something you just have to learn on big ticket items. The sewing machine dealers know how the game goes, it's just a dance you have to learn.

Art

Just to be clear, the extras mentioned are NOT included in the price of a machine with Artisan. The stand, positioning motor, feet, etc. are all optional accessories, as they are with Ferdco and other suppliers, for that matter.

Bill

[Lindsay John Ross]

I have been making holsters for close to 30 years now and am always surprized at the attention needle feed machines get on these forums. Am I the only one in the universe that thinks that if you are going to attempt holster or any heavy duty gear manufacture , then you are going to need a needle awl machine. I have been through many needle machines in my earlier days only to find that if you want the best stitch and a machine capable of sewing up to an inch thickness, then these are the ones to look for. I am aware of the cost of most needle awl machines but cost aside you cant beat them for the stitch they make ( and that includes hand stitching as well)

[bcurrier]

I have been making holsters for close to 30 years now and am always surprized at the attention needle feed machines get on these forums. Am I the only one in the universe that thinks that if you are going to attempt holster or any heavy duty gear manufacture , then you are going to need a needle awl machine. I have been through many needle machines in my earlier days only to find that if you want the best stitch and a machine capable of sewing up to an inch thickness, then these are the ones to look for. I am aware of the cost of most needle awl machines but cost aside you cant beat them for the stitch they make ( and that includes hand stitching as well)

Maybe you are, given that a lot of people are making holsters and heavy gear with needle feed machines. (Most are technically compound or unison feed, though). I suspect most such gear is made with compound feed machines. So, where's the "need"?

Compound feed machines work well, deliver a very nice stitch, and are far more flexible in terms of setup and range of capabilities. The latter items are critical considerations for non-professional users.

"Cost aside" doesn't really work as an argument when the price difference is multiples.

[bruce johnson]

Lindsay,

I know we had this discussion on another list as well. I am agreeing with you that a properly setup needle and awl machine will do a tighter stitch with less fuss and looks better. If I knew more about the mechanics, and parts and support were not quite the issue I would probably have one. Other than Campbell-Bosworth and Weaver selling the reconditioned models, is there anyone else? In my area, to buy a used one is fairly easy. To buy one that may not be the 600# anchor is the question. A lot of these older shops have a couple sitting around - one they use and one for parts. They have been patched, wired, and taped together. Other than packing it up and freighting it to Texas or Illinois, not much available for help. The old guys that can work on these machines are mostly retired or passed on. I see that as the issue for me. With the short arm needle feeds selling for around $2000, they have made that market more affordable for more casual users. The long arm big brother machines are the logical step up for most people then. The support is there, parts and accessories are a day or two away, and that is the popularity. I think the needs of the manufacturer vs the casual user is the key here.

One thing I have done since we talked last. I sold the Adler 205. I have two 2000s right now. One newer one and one when they still built on the Juki frame. I normally sew in a narrower and deeper groove. I run a tighter bobbin tension, a tighter top tension, and can usually get by with one size smaller needle on new work than most use. It makes a pretty good stitch and smaller needle hole. Not a good needle &awl stitch but closer. Better than a bad needle and awl stitch. I haven't tapped or rubbed any stitch lines in quite a while. It will pucker chap leather, so I have to back off a little there. On some of the harder leather on repairs, I have to move up a needle, but those holes are generally already there.

[Art]

Hi LJR,

Some of what you are saying I can agree with. Better stitch, yes, that much better, real hard to see. For someone who does less than production work, the needle and awl machine might just be more than they can (or really want to) handle. The threaded needle machines (because most HD leather stitcher and needle and awl machines are needle feed) are a lot easier to conceptualize and to learn then their needle and awl counterparts, most using 100 or more year old technology and unfortunately parts, the Campbell, Randall, and Union being the only ones with companies still manufacturing parts. Also, some of that 100 or more year old technology should have been replaced by newer methodologies, but they haven't been because of the volume of machines used by industry; the jump foot on the Campbell comes to mind. For the most part, the average Joe or Josephine wants to go to his machine the 5 or 6 times a week that he uses it for a few minutes each time and have it work for an initial purchase price of less than three grand. When things get to not working properly, he wants to be able to fix it himself, and believe me, few of the current crop of leatherworkers are sewing machine mechanics. In fact, there are scant few real sewing machine mechanics I would trust with my Campbell.

Then we must remember that the majority of leatherworkers are multi discipline, they want to use different size thread on different materials, and they want a fast changeover, mind you with just a little experience, that has not been the forte of the needle and awl and is where the threaded needle shines. For holster welts all day, give me a Campbell or Union, add in checkbook covers, belts, purses, and tack and the threaded needle machine looks better, especially for a one machine shop. If I could have one machine, I doubt it would be a needle and awl.

Art

I have been making holsters for close to 30 years now and am always surprized at the attention needle feed machines get on these forums. Am I the only one in the universe that thinks that if you are going to attempt holster or any heavy duty gear manufacture , then you are going to need a needle awl machine. I have been through many needle machines in my earlier days only to find that if you want the best stitch and a machine capable of sewing up to an inch thickness, then these are the ones to look for. I am aware of the cost of most needle awl machines but cost aside you cant beat them for the stitch they make ( and that includes hand stitching as well)

[Lindsay John Ross]

Absolutely right Art. My operation is a 20 man factory. We dont use needle machines and only operate needle awl machines. I know for a fact that when something goes wrong it is a mission in itself to correct especially with the Unions we have, but over the years we have become a lot smarter in correcting these machines. To be said, the Unions are the real beasts when it comes to repairing. At present we run 3 Unions and 3 Campbells. We have discovered that these are the best for bulk manufacturing which we do. I agree when making thinner items as wallets etc a needle feed machine will work better. Ascan be seen in the attachment ( if it comes through) the small hole between the stitch is the appealing part of needle awl machines to me but I have seen good stitches made with a needle feed when the stitch is dampened and flattened with a smoothing tool. To Bruce.............. I read yor reply and am interested to know adresses or email adresses of anyone selling used Campbells or the like if you could helpGreat forum this. Lindsay

[Art]

Hi Lindsay,

I have seen a Campbell occasionally on the Ferdco website in the used for sale section, they are around $4500 which may be looking better with the exchange rate or about 30,500 Rand I think. Of course prices on these things are usually negotiable.

Art

Absolutely right Art. My operation is a 20 man factory. We dont use needle machines and only operate needle awl machines. I know for a fact that when something goes wrong it is a mission in itself to correct especially with the Unions we have, but over the years we have become a lot smarter in correcting these machines. To be said, the Unions are the real beasts when it comes to repairing. At present we run 3 Unions and 3 Campbells. We have discovered that these are the best for bulk manufacturing which we do. I agree when making thinner items as wallets etc a needle feed machine will work better. Ascan be seen in the attachment ( if it comes through) the small hole between the stitch is the appealing part of needle awl machines to me but I have seen good stitches made with a needle feed when the stitch is dampened and flattened with a smoothing tool. To Bruce.............. I read yor reply and am interested to know adresses or email adresses of anyone selling used Campbells or the like if you could helpGreat forum this. Lindsay

[esantoro]

That is some very nice stitching with the needle and awl machine. I recently noticed that I can get something similar with a serv 1 needle on a 794 system cylinder arm machine. I had been using diamond point needles, but due to chance ended up with the serv 1 needles. I think I'll also be trying the reverse twist needles.

ed

[gtwister09]

Lindsay,

It's been a while... I have seen them for sale used on the following sites.

http://www.campbell-bosworth.com/

http://www.ferdco.com/

Regards,

Ben