C.S. Osborne quality control thru the years.

[DieselTech]

Guys & gals I am a fairly new leatherworker, been doing it off & on for 8-10years now. 

My question is to some of you older seasoned leather guys. Or who ever wants to chime in. 

So thru the years of working with leather. 

Do you think C.S. Osborne quality has went down hill today, from the older days of their tools?

I'm not sure what to expect, but I have ordered a few bag punches & strap end punches & to me, they look bad. 

2 new bag punches I got look like they are poor welds & appears to be cracks in them, running down the sides. 

1¾ round point strap end punch I just got, looks like someone got pissed & threw it against the concrete floor. It is bent out of shape. 

 

What's yours guys thoughts? Ok I'm done venting.

[TomE]

I don't have experience with older Osborne tools but I've been happy with those I purchased new in the last 10 years, after doing a bit of finish work and sharpening.  In my experience, any shortcomings were superficial and fixable.  The tools have been a good value.   @bruce johnson is the expert.  He can sell you vintage and new Osborne tools that are tuned up and ready for work.

[DieselTech]

11 minutes ago, TomE said:

I don't have experience with older Osborne tools but I've been happy with those I purchased new in the last 10 years, after doing a bit of finish work and sharpening.  In my experience, any shortcomings were superficial and fixable.  The tools have been a good value.   @bruce johnson is the expert.  He can sell you vintage and new Osborne tools that are tuned up and ready for work.

Thanks TomE. At least the small bag/oblong punches I got are sharp. Not as sharp as they could be thou. 

Yeah them big strap end punches have a fairly pricey tag on them. 

Wonder what their rossette cutters are like?

[Mablung]

Is the cutting edge on the round end punch smoothly curved, or is it deformed like the upper body of the punch blade? If it’s smoothly curved, yeah, the overall finish is a little sloppy, but it’s still going to do its job. I have read elsewhere the QC isn’t what it used to be, but the tools seem still to work. Only one I actually own is a 120-year-old round knife, though. 

[DieselTech]

6 minutes ago, Mablung said:

Is the cutting edge on the round end punch smoothly curved, or is it deformed like the upper body of the punch blade? If it’s smoothly curved, yeah, the overall finish is a little sloppy, but it’s still going to do its job. I have read elsewhere the QC isn’t what it used to be, but the tools seem still to work. Only one I actually own is a 120-year-old round knife, though. 

Thanks Mablung. No the dent/bend on the back side of the round end punch, is bad enough it traveled up to the cutting point of the punch. Slightly out of round. Hard to tell from my pictures. 

 

[Mablung]

Just now, DieselTech said:

Thanks Mablung. No the dent/bend on the back side of the round end punch, is bad enough it traveled up to the cutting point of the punch. Slightly out of round. Hard to tell from my pictures. 

 

That does pose a problem, then, doesn’t it? Can’t live with that, unfortunately. 

[DieselTech]

4 minutes ago, Mablung said:

That does pose a problem, then, doesn’t it? Can’t live with that, unfortunately. 

Well hopefully the big box leather store I ordered it from, will replace it. They haven't got back to me yet. Other than a email saying, a customer service agent will be in touch. 

Now the other thing I think, this being a big box leather store, I think they would check their punches before they are shipped out. 

I am sure this punch was bent like this from the factory. None of the boxes showed damage anyhow. 

[CdK]

My solution to the disappointment after paying premium prices for CSO tools has been to learn to make my own as the products they sell are at best starter kits that need serious rework to properly function. If they were cheaper this would be an option but just no, I won't other buying any CSO tools ever again.

[DieselTech]

9 minutes ago, CdK said:

My solution to the disappointment after paying premium prices for CSO tools has been to learn to make my own as the products they sell are at best starter kits that need serious rework to properly function. If they were cheaper this would be an option but just no, I won't other buying any CSO tools ever again.

Thanks. I do have the means/skills to make them, but dang it I don't want to make my tools too. 

I do have some handmade tools of my own, but more speciality tools you could say. 

[bruce johnson]

Buckle up - this may be a long one....

Fact - CS Osborne has probably never sent out a tool that is user ready sharp by some/many/most standards. I have had vintage tools in original packings from 150 years ago that had square edges. Back then each worker had their idea of what they wanted an edge to be - low taper and thin or higher angle and "chiseled". Easier cutting at the expense of blade edge longevity vs more durable steeper edge with more force needed. These users had an edge preference and the company sent out tools for them to finish off they way they liked them. There were no hobbyists, beginners, trading up from entry level tool craftsmen. These were work-a-day tradesmen and they generally provided and maintained the tools they used themselves - much like a modern day mechanic. I have had some cool portable tool chests they opened up and set up to work, closed up and packed them home at night. These were the guys that were the Gomph, HF Osborne, Rose knife, and CS Osborne users of an era we will never see again. CS Osborne outlasted the other makers is all. The leather trade was vital for the horse powered society. Henry Ford and powered farming made the harness maker in every town less of a necessity and the demand dropped some. 

This went merrily along with tools being made on some level for tradesmen until most will say the 1950s. People got some free time and hobbies and pastimes became a thing. Some people took up leatherwork. Tandy was a major player and there were several other leather craft tool suppliers. Most of these catalogs and hobby shops also sold Osborne tools. Eventually they replaced them with lower priced options and something had to give. Osborne changed patterns for some tools (like leather creasers) and had to cut production methods and likely material costs to compete. The focus switched from competing with other makers to a quality standard for a professional user  to a hobby price point standard. 

I don't have exact number of Osbornes but have handled over 15,000 vintage and used leather tools and my somewhat guess is that 60% or more have been CS Osbornes. These go from the 1860s up until something that could have been made last year. There was a dip at some point in quality on some things (that quality standard vs price point thing). My rule of thumb is rosewood handle tools are usually good, depending on the tool and guesstimate of age and experience - most of the ones past that are OK with a few exceptions that I have concerns with. Round knives in particular and I'll get to that in a bit. 

My beginning from the leather business to tool business transition was refurbishing old tools. A few years ago I sold some new mauls for Wayne Jueschke, that progressed into stamps and string cutters too. I sold a few other new tools as well but mainly refurbished vintage tools. I was buying Osborne parts from Osborne dealers. Problem was that I'd need 20 draw gauge shims, blades, or punch tubes and this place had 5, another had 3, some would order from Osborne and then resell to me as I ordered. I'd end up ordering from 5 places. It sucked. Osborne had turned me down a few years earlier as a dealer because I even though I had a business license I wasn't brick and mortar storefront and a few other factors. I finally tried again and they said "yes" to a limited scale that has since enlarged. So here I am... 

I started on a low level - mostly buying parts for my refurbishing side of things and selling a few of those parts as well. I was doing a little outside sharpening/resharpening for current customers then too. They would buy a new Osborne tool from a supplier because I didn't have it in a used or vintage size they needed. They would send to me to sharpen before they used it. After a few of those I'd get the "Bruce, Can you just order me these, sharpen them and send them to me. Can we cut out the middleman?" That is the reason that I stock the different new tools as I do now, and expand what I am stocking often by customer request. 

MY deal? I handle every new tool I sell. I have a work shop and the tools to do sharpening and finishing - variable speed knife grinders and buffers, wet grinders, polishers, sharpeners etc. I am not just stocking a box with a tool in it and mailing it out when it sells. The $8 fids? They come new with grind marks on the faces, and some have sharp points. I polish the faces and smooth the point. This is still an $8 tool when I am done. The hammers have squared edges and grind marks on the faces and heels - I go through the grits and polish them to be smooth and not mark leather. The rotary and single tube punches have the tubes removed, sharpened and polished. Some of the frames have a sharp square edge at the hinges and I polish that to be easier in the hand. The new single tube punch frames have the size numbers etched on them now. By request I can number stamp with a machinist punch for better visibility. Some of the punches come pretty sharp, some don't. They can come with some grind marks. I clean all that up and sharpen them. Every punch has been sharpened. I am going to say that I have seen an improvement in the factory edges overall in the last couple years. Some rosette punches may have burs, but none have flat edges like I have got in to sharpen in the past. Splitter blades - OMG - night and day. These bimetal blades are the nuts. I like them a lot. I touch up the edges for sure but man are they a step up from a few years ago too. 

Draw gauges - I am asked why I don't carry the new draw gauges. The quick and real answer is that if my wife unpacked a new cast metal handle draw gauge she would gut me with it. I likely have at least 50 cast metal draw gauges to clean up. Every estate and tradesman set I buy has at least 1 and often more. I just need to catch some time to do them. Nothing against the new ones, I just have a few totes of old ones to get ready to sell first.

Round handled knives - these are utility knives. Shoe repair and stuff like that. Made to compete with the $10 green handle Hyde knives and were never intended to be edge-holding pass them to your grandkids knives. Basically use them, grind an edge, use them again until it was time to throw them away. I don't stock them but can order them. You can't expect as much from them as a custom knife makers trim knife. 

Round knives - OK the old rosewood handle Newark marked knives are generally very good. The newer reddish handled used ones I would get could go either way.  Some were literally not much better than a sharpened can lid. They were on a par with the Tandy round knives. Total price point tool. I could sharpen one to a nice edge in under 5 minutes. That edge wouldn't last as long but that was just the deal with them. If I get them in a set, you will find them marked $20 or so on Ms Rundi's Table O' Bargains at the leather shows. I had a guy call me up a while back and placed an order. He wanted some other things  and order me 4 round knives too. I told him he wouldn't like the knives. He said he didn't care - just order them. He was a saddle maker and in his ranch shop the workers would come in and grab his good knives and tear them up when he wasn't there. I have to order the minimum of 6 from Osborne. At least they won't take much time I am telling myself. Yeaaaaah. They came with basically not much of an edge - steep and gritty and not unexpected. These 5 minute wonders took about 25 minutes of slow speed grinding to get the bevel set and work through a couple grits. WTH?? Then I go to the wheels and through the compounds and final edge. Something changed from what I was expecting - these seemed to be pretty nice knives. I sent him his knives and didn't say anything. He made another order a few months later and we didn't bring up knives.  He called me a few months again and said he needed to talk about the knives too. "here we go...". He wanted to know what the deal was on these knives. They are way better than other Osbornes he'd had. After these guys were using them the knives were still cutting.  He tried one and cut a full saddle from HO and stropped once. His take was these were about like his custom knife he mostly used. He's a fan! Since then, I have sold quite a few more. Pretty much the same feedback from people who have used other good knives. these are better than the recent past ones. I never asked anyone at Osborne about it. At the Sheridan show this year I was talking with the sales rep for Osborne. We BS'd about some of the other tools and I told him about these knives. He said that it was an interesting observation and there was a reason. The new family manager for the company was taking some of the past criticism to heart and made some changes. One was that they went back to an older formula steel and process for the knives. In my limited experience, it is working. 

So- What is the bottom line according to Johnson?

If you order an Osborne tool do not expect it to come using sharp from most places. If you want that,  you have choices -  sharpen it to your liking or buy something else from some off the grid tool makers and custom makers can make sharper tools for sure but at a convenience or price difference. Osborne makes production tools at production tool prices. They weren't finishing them off to a perfect using edge 150 years and generally aren't now with a few exceptions. If you get a tool that needs help and go on-line someone always says "Oh,  just strop it" . Might want to be prepared for a long session if you follow that. You need to read the edge.  It may just need a light stropping but it also may need some stones and compounds before stropping too. Sharpening is a learned and evolving skill. Do not expect a tool to stay sharp afterwards forever. Using the right cutting surface for punches and knives helps prolong edges but they are all going to need resharpening. If you cant resharpen, find someone who can. 

Am I saying every tool is perfect? Not in the least. I have had off shapes on end punches once in a great while. I have had loose handles. I have handled and sharpened these tools and still had a couple get by me with issues. I have had punch edges fold, stress cracks after a bit of use. Handles split. It happens. 

Shameless plug - If you buy from me, you deal with me. If you have an issue I am not sending you to the maker. I will choose to deal with them or eat it. I have used most of these tools in the past in my leather shop. I have an idea what they need to do and try my best to get them to be ready to use. After the sale - "Buy from me, I resharpen for free" (just the cost of return shipping). It is the same deal as my refurbished tools.

My other disclaimer is that I am not doing outside sharpening right now for other tools. I still have a day job for another 238 days and limited shop time. Once I am retired I will probably be offering resharpening services for tools bought anywhere but just can't right now. 

 

 

[DieselTech]

1st off I want to say, Thank You @bruce johnson very much. This history/old time experience has explained a lot to me. 

It also means a lot to me. Thanks. 

Ok now that I got a cup of coffee, I am going to whittle at this a Lil at a time. 

I will have to read this a few times, to get all the great info/history of your article on C.S. Osborne tools. 

I am going to go slow on this reading & I am going to have more than 1 response to this article, so I can take it all in. Plus I want to add pictures to my responses, to help, show, & maybe help others on their tools. 

Thanks again. @bruce johnson 

Later today I got some pictures to add & another response/comment to add to this thread. 

[TomE]

Thanks, @bruce johnson.  I enjoy learning from you and appreciate you taking the time to put the information out there.