Flat Table Machine

[Scifidelity]

I have a Cowboy Outlaw. I love it, but need a machine that can handle thinner thread for small leather goods. I've done a couple of card cases, wallets, etc. on it and the items end up looking too rustic with 207 thread. I tried setting the machine up with 138 and it hated it. Anyway, that's not the point of the post. 

I started researching some flat bed machines and it seems like a machine in the $1200 range would suffice, but I don't want to outgrow it in 4 years. I would be happy to get one in good used condition, but they seem hard to come by and shipping usually wipes most of the savings. not to mention the uncertainly of working order. I am looking at machines like the Consew 206RB.  From what I've read, it's built to last decades and is relatively simple to use. However, it seems like many people go with 441 based machines. Are there cobra and/ or cowboy machines I should consider? Other makes/ models? Both of those makes have dizzyingly large product ranges. I can't justify nor afford the ultra high end German machines. Thanks for your help. 

 

A bit about the intended use:

-Hobby level+. meaning in the near future, I may start selling at local markets. regardless, the machine won't be used all day like in a true production environment. 

-Flat materials, 3/8" max material thickness is fine. 

-Thread size 46 (maybe just 69) to 138 thread. No need to go above 138 thread since my Cowboy Outlaw can pick it up from there. I don't think I'll need to smaller than 46. 

 

Machine features I know I want

-powered reverse with adjustable reverse stitch length

-wide range of stitch length

-safety disengage clutch to prevent losing timing

-Speed reducer

-Brushless Servo Motor

-lift lock for walking foot 

-compound walking foot

-temporary lift lever 

-110V

-what else should I consider must haves? 

 

Undecided on:

-needle positioner 

-arm length. I do work on some larger pieces. 

-size of motor. I think the standard 500-550 is enough, but am unsure. 

 

Edited Saturday at 10:58 PM by Scifidelity

[AlZilla]

You don't need or want a 441 class machine. It won't sew the light thread you want. 

Why not take a look at this one: 

https://tolindsewmach.com/cb341.html

It's got your thread range and thickness covered. You'll need to dig in to the safety clutch, etc.

The 206RB meets your spec, too, if you can live with the flatbed.

The big dogs will no doubt be along with more and better advice.

[kgg]

My take:

5 hours ago, Scifidelity said:

-Flat materials, 3/8" max material thickness is fine. 

In a flatbed the 3/8" thickness generally is under ideal conditions. If you are at or close I think you need to move to a cylinder arm machine with a flatbed attachment in the Class 341 / 1341 machines. You are probably going to find that using V46 thread could be a chore as the needles typically for system 135 x 16 for that size of thread are thin and will have a tendency to bend / break. I would suggest probably consider using V69 as a bottom end thread size in thin stuff.

5 hours ago, Scifidelity said:

-Brushless Servo Motor

This style of servo motor is becoming popular but choose one with at least 9 internal coils. The more internal coils the better the starting speed and torque characteristics. 

5 hours ago, Scifidelity said:

-needle positioner 

With the brushless servo motors this feature is usually included. You can try it and decide if you like that feature. Some like it others not so much.

5 hours ago, Scifidelity said:

I am looking at machines like the Consew 206RB.  From what I've read, it's built to last decades and is relatively simple to use.

In my opinion this is a poor twice removed cousin of a Juki DNU-1541S. I recently had a Consew 206RB-5 that was intended to replace my walking foot Juki DU-1181N. I kept the Juki DU-1181N and got rid of the Consew 206RB-5. The older ones were made in Japan and the new ones ??????

There a lot of decent flatbed Juki DNU-1541S clones available just like there are a lot of cylinder arm Juki LS-341 clones. If possible take a sample of your stuff and test drive some machines to see what best fits your needs, budget and choose a vendor with a good after sales reputation.

Buy Once, Cry Once

kgg

 

Edited yesterday at 04:12 AM by kgg

[Scifidelity]

50 minutes ago, kgg said:

My take:

In a flatbed the 3/8" thickness generally is under ideal conditions. If you are at or close I think you need to move to a cylinder arm machine with a flatbed attachment in the Class 341 / 1341 machines. You are probably going to find that using V46 thread could be a chore as the needles typically for system 135 x 16 for that size of thread are thin and will have a tendency to bend / break. I would suggest probably consider using V69 as a bottom end thread size in thin stuff.

This style of servo motor is becoming popular but choose one with at least 9 internal coils. The more internal coils the better the starting speed and torque characteristics. 

With the brushless servo motors this feature is usually included. You can try it and decide if you like that feature. Some like it others not so much.

In my opinion this is a poor twice removed cousin of a Juki DNU-1541S. I recently had a Consew 206RB-5 that was intended to replace my walking foot Juki DU-1181N. I kept the Juki DU-1181N and got rid of the Consew 206RB-5. The older ones were made in Japan and the new ones ??????

There a lot of decent flatbed Juki DNU-1541S clones available just like there are a lot of cylinder arm Juki LS-341 clones. If possible take a sample of your stuff and test drive some machines to see what best fits your needs, budget and choose a vendor with a good after sales reputation.

Buy Once, Cry Once

kgg

 

Thank you for the detailed reply and insight! I'm glad you mentioned the 9 coils. I read about coil count making a big difference and forgot about it. The 1541s seems like the gold standard. It came up in my research, but I didn't want to spend that much. You're right though, buy once, cry once. for $400 more than my budget, it's probably worth it. I wrote the 1181 off because it doesn't have a triple feed and can't handle 138 thread.  

[kgg]

5 hours ago, Scifidelity said:

I wrote the 1181 off because it doesn't have a triple feed and can't handle 138 thread.  

I do use V138 in my Juki DU-1181N and have it for thinner stuff as my Juki DNU-1541S hates thinner stuff.

A thing to remember is how Juki rates their machines. Thread wise they rate their machines on what that model of machine can handle in both the needle and in the bobbin at the max rated sewing thickness NOT what the max size of thread can be stuffed through the max rated needle size it can handle in the needle bar. The Juki DU-1181N is rated for V92 thread and can handle a #23 needle which is rated for V138 thread. Some clones might be temped to rate the machine for V138. You are right a compound feed should be better.

kgg

Edited 23 hours ago by kgg

[Wizcrafts]

18 hours ago, Scifidelity said:

A bit about the intended use:

-Flat materials, 3/8" max material thickness is fine. 

-Thread size 46 (maybe just 69) to 138 thread. No need to go above 138 thread since my Cowboy Outlaw can pick it up from there. I don't think I'll need to smaller than 46. 

Any walking foot machine that can sew 3/8 of an inch will have to have a maximum clearance of about 1/2 inch with the feet fully up. This is because they walk up and down about 1/8 inch, plus or minus. So, look for a machine that clears 1/2 inch or greater. The Juki LU-1508NH comes to mind. This is a production machine that will last for decades if not abused (meaning oil it regularly). There are clones of this machine, but they aren't cheap.

If you really intend to sew something with #46 bonded thread, know that it is about the same size as common garment thread; just stronger. I believe that you'll need a #12 or #14 needle and probably a softer action primary tension spring. The check spring tension will need to be backed off and the bobbin spring action increased. In other words, you'll have to dumb down the machine to use #46 thread.

Rather than dumbing down a walking foot machine, think about getting a bottom feed tailoring machine with a flat foot. Or, if you'll be sewing thin leather, a roller foot machine. The advantage of a tailoring machine is that it will have a small hole in the throat plate to accommodate a #12 or #14 needle without excessive clearance like a walking foot machine will have. The first machine that comes to mind is a Singer 31-15 flat foot, or 31-19 "kick foot" that has a spring loaded outside foot, but fixed position needle and inside foot. These are flat bed machines that can easily handle thread sizes 46 through 92. By changing the needle plate and tension spring, they can handle #138 thread. Further, there are roller foot conversion kits that fit the 31-15. Boot makers, like Lisa Sorrell, often use this machine, or one like it to sew fancy stitching on Cowboy boots.

[Scifidelity]

19 hours ago, AlZilla said:

You don't need or want a 441 class machine. It won't sew the light thread you want. 

Why not take a look at this one: 

https://tolindsewmach.com/cb341.html

It's got your thread range and thickness covered. You'll need to dig in to the safety clutch, etc.

The 206RB meets your spec, too, if you can live with the flatbed.

The big dogs will no doubt be along with more and better advice.

Thanks for the info. I want a flatbed for my second machine. Eventually I'll replace the Outlaw with an electric cylinder arm. 

[AlZilla]

1 minute ago, Scifidelity said:

Thanks for the info. I want a flatbed for my second machine. Eventually I'll replace the Outlaw with an electric cylinder arm. 

I'd be much more inclined to listen to Wiz and KGG than any of my ramblings... Those guys have been there, done that and have a closet full of t-shirts to prove it.

[Scifidelity]

2 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

Any walking foot machine that can sew 3/8 of an inch will have to have a maximum clearance of about 1/2 inch with the feet fully up. This is because they walk up and down about 1/8 inch, plus or minus. So, look for a machine that clears 1/2 inch or greater. The Juki LU-1508NH comes to mind. This is a production machine that will last for decades if not abused (meaning oil it regularly). There are clones of this machine, but they aren't cheap.

If you really intend to sew something with #46 bonded thread, know that it is about the same size as common garment thread; just stronger. I believe that you'll need a #12 or #14 needle and probably a softer action primary tension spring. The check spring tension will need to be backed off and the bobbin spring action increased. In other words, you'll have to dumb down the machine to use #46 thread.

Rather than dumbing down a walking foot machine, think about getting a bottom feed tailoring machine with a flat foot. Or, if you'll be sewing thin leather, a roller foot machine. The advantage of a tailoring machine is that it will have a small hole in the throat plate to accommodate a #12 or #14 needle without excessive clearance like a walking foot machine will have. The first machine that comes to mind is a Singer 31-15 flat foot, or 31-19 "kick foot" that has a spring loaded outside foot, but fixed position needle and inside foot. These are flat bed machines that can easily handle thread sizes 46 through 92. By changing the needle plate and tension spring, they can handle #138 thread. Further, there are roller foot conversion kits that fit the 31-15. Boot makers, like Lisa Sorrell, often use this machine, or one like it to sew fancy stitching on Cowboy boots.

Thanks for reply. After researching a some other flat bed commercial machines, it does seem #69 thread is a common minimum. I think I can make that size work for my pieces.