how many in the group are saddle makers?

[David Genadek]

Gary,

I’ll give you my opinion of the state of tree making in the US and I present it as an opinion as I know many of my fitting concepts are contrary to the current paradigm of the industry. However, my opinions are backed by biomechanical facts.

As a rule the paradigms that the tree makers are currently using have been shaped by traditions that have been passed along through families. In short many of them are working off patterns that were developed over a hundred years ago. Today in the United States there are over 110 breeds represented and there are more horses here than there ever has been. Although despite the numerous breeds and proliferation of rib cage shapes, the current paradigm of the industry is that saddle fit happens in the whither area and can be accommodated by just widening the gullet. This is where poor saddle fit makes it self-apparent but good saddle fit happens over the rib cage. This confusion has led to a fixation on the gullet of the saddle and gullet angle.

Although these elements have an effect they are currently distracting the industry from creating fit in the middle where the focus should be. This can only be achieved by thinking in terms of shape and not width.

Therefore, when you ask about who makes a quality tree you would need to first state what your definition of quality is. Saddle makers are generally taught that fit is the realm of the tree maker. Of course we are all one of the best saddle makers and we all have the best tree maker but if we would like to solidify our position in the industry and command a greater margins we should not believe our own publicity. If you are looking for quality of parts and the quality of the coverings each company has a place in the market. If your looking at proper fit each is equally dysfunctional. So the other questions you need to ask is what segment of the horse industry are you trying to target and what price point do you need to hit.

Ralide (I am a former employee of their parent company) of course is designed for the lowest end of the market. Originally these trees were developed by Dan Crates (when he owned Simco) in cooperation with Plastics Industries. There original purpose was to create a near disposable saddle for a grandfather to buy a grandchild so they could go ride a pony a few times. Their biggest flaw is not the material they are made of but the fact that on many models the seat is lower than the bars, which sets the rider directly on the spine.

Steele saddletree is next in the price progression. There are two Steele’s the son Eddy and the father, who don’t get along very well. Eddy runs Steele Saddle Tree Company, which is the largest manufacturer of western trees in the world. It used to be that most of their trees were fiber glassed today he is doing a molded flex tree which is killing horses.

Eddy is the most skilled pattern maker in the industry however he focuses his efforts on the large companies. His father makes custom trees. There was another brother involved but he and Eddy didn’t see eye to eye so Eddy quit and went to work for a foundry then his brother burned the factory down and Eddy came back and gained control again and rebuilt the factory.

The next level is where you will find cheaper rawhide covered trees and the coated trees. The main players on this level are Bowden (The part of the company that is run by

Arlen, his dad, Francis does higher end custom trees.) and Hadlock and Fox. I have never used Hadlock and fox but I have used Bowden. Arlen made to many mistakes and cost me $80,000.00 one year so I got pissed off and started my own tree company. I did find Francis Bowden to have a good grasp of things but he has resigned himself to doing what the saddle makers request and my impression was that he is bit bitter about it all. Funny we tell our customers we have the best tree maker in the world and the tree maker says he does what the saddle maker tells him to do. In the end we all need to get a data base of back shapes and create a standards right now that doesn’t exist at any level so our whole industry isn’t much more than a big marketing con game.

The third level is all the smaller tree makers which seem to be getting pretty numerous but if they are good or not will depend on your needs.

There are limits imposed on the tree makers due to the nature of the duplicating equipment they use. Today’s technology should be changing that. I use a five-axis router to cut my parts, which we have developed using digitized backs. In reality bars need a double twist and the bottom of the bar should be concave. Traditional methods of tree production inhibit this from happening. However it is cheaper for me to buy trees from other makers. So from my perspective the trees being produced are not cutting it the real world unless your clients have a particular build of horse. If your building for running QH you may have pretty good luck with standard trees. So you pretty much pick who you get along the best with and con your way around the problems with the customers. Fortunately most of them don’t have a clue so if you buy them a drink and make them feel good they will tell everyone to buy for you.

David Genadek

[BruceGibson]

Saddlemaker here, too. And, California born--I'm from Lompoc. So now we have two "Bruce's" with a California connection.

[BruceGibson]

Gary,

I’ll give you my opinion of the state of tree making in the US and I present it as an opinion as I know many of my fitting concepts are contrary to the current paradigm of the industry. However, my opinions are backed by biomechanical facts.

As a rule the paradigms that the tree makers are currently using have been shaped by traditions that have been passed along through families. In short many of them are working off patterns that were developed over a hundred years ago. Today in the United States there are over 110 breeds represented and there are more horses here than there ever has been. Although despite the numerous breeds and proliferation of rib cage shapes, the current paradigm of the industry is that saddle fit happens in the whither area and can be accommodated by just widening the gullet. This is where poor saddle fit makes it self-apparent but good saddle fit happens over the rib cage. This confusion has led to a fixation on the gullet of the saddle and gullet angle.

Although these elements have an effect they are currently distracting the industry from creating fit in the middle where the focus should be. This can only be achieved by thinking in terms of shape and not width.

Therefore, when you ask about who makes a quality tree you would need to first state what your definition of quality is. Saddle makers are generally taught that fit is the realm of the tree maker. Of course we are all one of the best saddle makers and we all have the best tree maker but if we would like to solidify our position in the industry and command a greater margins we should not believe our own publicity. If you are looking for quality of parts and the quality of the coverings each company has a place in the market. If your looking at proper fit each is equally dysfunctional. So the other questions you need to ask is what segment of the horse industry are you trying to target and what price point do you need to hit.

Ralide (I am a former employee of their parent company) of course is designed for the lowest end of the market. Originally these trees were developed by Dan Crates (when he owned Simco) in cooperation with Plastics Industries. There original purpose was to create a near disposable saddle for a grandfather to buy a grandchild so they could go ride a pony a few times. Their biggest flaw is not the material they are made of but the fact that on many models the seat is lower than the bars, which sets the rider directly on the spine.

Steele saddletree is next in the price progression. There are two Steele’s the son Eddy and the father, who don’t get along very well. Eddy runs Steele Saddle Tree Company, which is the largest manufacturer of western trees in the world. It used to be that most of their trees were fiber glassed today he is doing a molded flex tree which is killing horses.

Eddy is the most skilled pattern maker in the industry however he focuses his efforts on the large companies. His father makes custom trees. There was another brother involved but he and Eddy didn’t see eye to eye so Eddy quit and went to work for a foundry then his brother burned the factory down and Eddy came back and gained control again and rebuilt the factory.

The next level is where you will find cheaper rawhide covered trees and the coated trees. The main players on this level are Bowden (The part of the company that is run by

Arlen, his dad, Francis does higher end custom trees.) and Hadlock and Fox. I have never used Hadlock and fox but I have used Bowden. Arlen made to many mistakes and cost me $80,000.00 one year so I got pissed off and started my own tree company. I did find Francis Bowden to have a good grasp of things but he has resigned himself to doing what the saddle makers request and my impression was that he is bit bitter about it all. Funny we tell our customers we have the best tree maker in the world and the tree maker says he does what the saddle maker tells him to do. In the end we all need to get a data base of back shapes and create a standards right now that doesn’t exist at any level so our whole industry isn’t much more than a big marketing con game.

The third level is all the smaller tree makers which seem to be getting pretty numerous but if they are good or not will depend on your needs.

There are limits imposed on the tree makers due to the nature of the duplicating equipment they use. Today’s technology should be changing that. I use a five-axis router to cut my parts, which we have developed using digitized backs. In reality bars need a double twist and the bottom of the bar should be concave. Traditional methods of tree production inhibit this from happening. However it is cheaper for me to buy trees from other makers. So from my perspective the trees being produced are not cutting it the real world unless your clients have a particular build of horse. If your building for running QH you may have pretty good luck with standard trees. So you pretty much pick who you get along the best with and con your way around the problems with the customers. Fortunately most of them don’t have a clue so if you buy them a drink and make them feel good they will tell everyone to buy for you.

David Genadek

Very interesting post, David. I use Bowden (from Arlen) saddle trees and I've been pleased with everything I've gotten from them. My opinion on the whole "saddle fitting" deal is that it's not dissimilar to the whole "equine chiropractic" deal...it's a con-game. I'm fortunate to not only be a horse owner, but I also have access to sixty or more head a mile down the road from me that I have free rein to work with at any time. I can test gear...bridles, halters, saddles, etc. And I take advantage of that. I've never hurt a horse in any way with any saddle I've built from any tree I've gotten from Bowden. I do not, and will not, use any of the plastic poly crap that these "high-tech" companies put out. I use saddle trees built from wood and covered in rawhide. They work, have always worked, and unless equine physiology takes on a drastic overnight change, I see no reason why they won't continue to work. And work well.

I would strongly advise anyone that is tempted to buy-in to the saddle-fitting, equine chiropractics, equine dentistry cons to do some research before taking the leap. Just take a step back and look at reality.

[BruceGibson]

Welcome, Ronny! Your post came across just fine. Why the heck did you leave Idaho for Oklahoma?

[BruceGibson]

And, welcome Gary from the UK. Hope you don't feel you've fallen into a "tree-fitting" battle. It's great to have you here!!

[Ronny]

Thanks for the welcome! We like Oklahoma, home of the best weather in the world, and the worst weather in the world! We lived in the two extremes of the USA, extreme heat in Ariz and extreme cold in sw Idaho.

When our kids were home we did a lot of winter things,sking, sledding(machines),hunting and fishing,ect. but they grew up and my wife and I were feeding 23 head of horses and foaling mares in 15-20 below zero weather. The fun was gone. Oklahoma is OKAY! Later, Ronny

[gary]

Hello everyone,

Thanks for the welcome and thanks for the replies I've had on the saddle tree question.

I'll work through them and keep you updated.

And Happy Easter to everyone.

Gary

[Blake]

Wow! I thought we would get more replies.

Hi Ronny. Welcome to the group. We will look forward to your posts. Who did you work with while you were in Arizona?

Hey Bruce. I thought Bandera Texas was the Cowboy Capital? at least they said it was?

Is anyone planning to be in Texas for the Boot and Saddle Makers Roundup this fall? I was kind of thinking that if enough people on the list responded and some were going then we might plan to get together for a sassparilla during the show.

Blake

[Galadriel]

I've never hurt a horse in any way with any saddle I've built

When I see someone say something like this, here are my thoughts on the matter:

1) You've been really damn lucky. You've worked with horses who happen to fit reasonably well into the saddles you've made--in some cases, not unreasonable.

2) You haven't tested enough.

Or,

3) You don't really know how to check for soreness in a horse.

I have seen horses hurt really, really badly by poorly fitting saddles, both Western and English. The one hurt the worst was one who *screamed* at me when I touched his back; he'd been ridden for pleasure in a Western saddle only.

I've seen some really nice saddles with lovely trees which just did NOT fit on the horses who were supposed to be wearing them. I'm looking at horses ridden for pleasure or performance, often in fields some ways from where their breeding lies (ie, the downhill-built Paint that they're trying to train in eventing, or the Standardbred that they're riding on the trail, and so on). People love their horses and just want to ride them and enjoy them, and in the main they just don't have a CLUE what the inside of their saddle looks like. They don't know how to check for fit. Getting something approximately right improves these horses' lives a hundredfold.

I've also seen dramatic, immediate differences when we put something that does fit onto a horse. That's not something that could be faked with a con game. Horses who "take 20 or 30 minutes to work into the bridle" and are stiff until then, suddenly are soft and responsive as soon as you mount up. Horses who wouldn't stay in the trot suddenly trot with ease. Horses who wouldn't stride out or have a choppy stride suddenly have a long beautiful stride. This is easing pain in the horse, not some kind of mind game that I play on the riders. Sometimes a small change makes all the difference; sometimes the saddle needs to be changed completely.

It makes me sick to see a horse who's been (or is being) ridden in a badly fitting saddle. It's worse when someone who *makes* saddles doesn't seem to understand why saddles need to fit.

[Galadriel]

I have been watching a discussion on another list about saddle trees, it is very sad. How ignorant our profession must seem to serouse horseman.

Was that mine? Did you have something else that you thought ought to be said? Seeing that you seem to read the posts, I was hoping that you would say something at least...even if it was just "don't bother." (I was really hoping for a response from Blake, too.)

~ ~ ~

Your idea of a database of back shapes is fascinating.