any experience with Jackware?

[SteveJ]

Hello all,

Wondering if any one out there has had any experience with Jackware. In particular, things like buckets, mugs, flasks, etc. It is a fairly ancient art, but I haven't had much success in finding any details on construction techniques. It is something that I always wanted to try, but I would like to get some more info.

Steve

[Don101]

Hi steve what is jackware ive never heard of that term before?

[David Genadek]

Steve,

When I was young there seemed to be a lot more information on that topic than what you see today. Of course the renascence festivals were new back then and when you went to them there were all kinds of hand made leather mugs very unlike the crap they sell at them today. I remember articles in the Leather Crafters journal sometime in the 70’s on the subject as I was always intrigued by it myself but I couldn’t tell you which issue.

At this point museums might be of more use though. Are there many on the lists that do Renascence festivals? Surely someone knows of someone!

David Genadek

[SteveJ]

Hi steve what is jackware ive never heard of that term before?

Hi Don,

The examples that I have seen are usually leather containers of some type. Mugs, flasks, buckets. Heavy leather for the most part. I would think that things like flasks would almost have to be molded, but then again I just don't know. I've heard that it has been around since the 1100's, but again it's just what I've heard.

[SteveJ]

Hello David,

I agree, I could swear that I found some articles in the past. Beats me what happened to them. There also seems to be very little on the web, but maybe I just haven't found the right site.

I also agree that some of the modern stuff that I have seen has not been up to the standards that they once were. I believe that there is , or was a cordwainer by the name of Busch up here in Wisc. that did some extremely nice stuff. I will see if I can find some info on him.

[joet]

Digging around in my indexes for all the leather magazines I have looked up information on mugs. There are at least two articles mentioned. A Blackjack mug by David Frantz is located in the Jun/Jul 1976 issue of Make It With Leather. A second article is by Russ Holzer in the Oct/Nov 1978 issue of the same magazine. I think there was an article for leather buckets used by firemen, but not sure which issue that one is in. Make it With Leather has been replaced by Leather Crafters and Saddlers Journal (for those that don't know), which is the best (and only) magazine out there for us leather crafters.

[David Genadek]

Steve,

I use to have a guy working from me that was really into living history. I think he still might be at Fort Snelling. His name is Ken Holmstrom and he would probable be able to hook you up with the right people. Give Fort Snelling in St Paul MN a call and see if he is working there. If not him, some one there could probable point you in the right direction. I know he had made some mugs and he is a very good source for hand sewing knowledge.

David Genadek

[SteveJ]

Digging around in my indexes for all the leather magazines I have looked up information on mugs. There are at least two articles mentioned. A Blackjack mug by David Frantz is located in the Jun/Jul 1976 issue of Make It With Leather. A second article is by Russ Holzer in the Oct/Nov 1978 issue of the same magazine. I think there was an article for leather buckets used by firemen, but not sure which issue that one is in. Make it With Leather has been replaced by Leather Crafters and Saddlers Journal (for those that don't know), which is the best (and only) magazine out there for us leather crafters.

Do the articles go into any kind of detail about construction or materials? Or are they just finished piece display articles?

Steve

[SteveJ]

Steve,

I use to have a guy working from me that was really into living history. I think he still might be at Fort Snelling. His name is Ken Holmstrom and he would probable be able to hook you up with the right people. Give Fort Snelling in St Paul MN a call and see if he is working there. If not him, some one there could probable point you in the right direction. I know he had made some mugs and he is a very good source for hand sewing knowledge.

David Genadek

Thanks for the lead David. I am only about a hour and a half from Ft. Snelling. Is he the leather worker in residence over there?

[joet]

Do the articles go into any kind of detail about construction or materials? Or are they just finished piece display articles?

Steve

If I remember the Blackjack article it was very discriptive with a several pictures. It covered about as much detail as any article in the LCSJ, which can be quite a lot in such a short space. I don't really remember the other article but from the discription in the index it was mostly covering an already existing container, but I'm not sure of that. I didn't look up the leather bucket one, but I think it also went into some detail on construction. Sorry I can't help more, it would take several days to locate the actual magazine to find the article as it is burried in my basement/workshop which I haven't seen in some time.

[whinewine]

Digging around in my indexes for all the leather magazines I have looked up information on mugs. There are at least two articles mentioned. A Blackjack mug by David Frantz is located in the Jun/Jul 1976 issue of Make It With Leather. A second article is by Russ Holzer in the Oct/Nov 1978 issue of the same magazine. I think there was an article for leather buckets used by firemen, but not sure which issue that one is in. Make it With Leather has been replaced by Leather Crafters and Saddlers Journal (for those that don't know), which is the best (and only) magazine out there for us leather crafters.

Wow!

not often that I hear my name taken ( & not in vain, no less)... yes, I did write & illustrate an article on construction of a drinking jack, but that particular referenced article (Oct/November 1978) dealt with the construction of a leather covered ceramic mug, not a jack. I did, however, write an article for MIWL illustrating the construction of an actual full leather drinking jack (but, for the life of me, I cannot locate the exact issue date tonight- Sorry!).

Yes, I still have that particular jack. It was an article I had written on trying to recreate something, recent and new (28 plus or minus years, ago, anyway...) that looked several hundred years old, by nuking it in a microwave oven (& yes, the results were admirable and very authentic looking). At that time, I had no access to genuine pine pitch, so I used epoxy glue to make it waterproof. Sometime after, Tandy began selling pine pitch & later discontinued it, but it is still available from a source or two on the internet. Back in the '70s, pine pitch was used to line tank cars, but since the advent of stainless steel, it is once again very hard to obtain.

However, the better person to contact for jack information is Frank Zigon ( frank.zigon@verizon.net ), who also did numerous articles for MIWL, including a great article on jack construction (I can't remember which particular issue-- Sorry again!)... [Recently I did meet him at the Butler, PA iFolG show & found out that we lived less than 150 miles away from each other - what a small world we actually do live in!]

Russ Holzer

Edited April 23, 2007 by whinewine

[David Genadek]

I haven't talked to him in years so I don't really know but he used to make the shoes over there. He is very good on the research.

Thanks for the lead David. I am only about a hour and a half from Ft. Snelling. Is he the leather worker in residence over there?

[Art]

Hi Steve,

You really need to get ahold of Frank Zigon. He makes bottles and would know what you want to know. I believe he also publishes and index if leather articles going way back (50's). He also wrote and published a monograph "Making Medieval & Colonial American Leather Bottles" which might be of some help to you. Nice Guy.

Frank.Zigon@verizon.net

(412) 833-5411

Art

Hello all,

Wondering if any one out there has had any experience with Jackware. In particular, things like buckets, mugs, flasks, etc. It is a fairly ancient art, but I haven't had much success in finding any details on construction techniques. It is something that I always wanted to try, but I would like to get some more info.

Steve

[David Genadek]

For those of you who think I am older than sin because I remembered the articles form the 70's I just want you to know I was a mere infant at the time.

David Genadek

[SteveJ]

Just wanted to thank everybody for the info so far. This forum is a great resource , and I appreciate the willingness of everyone to share what they know. Really glad I found this place.

I was also going through one of the catalogs I get and found a series of videos put together by Eric Myall. One of the videos is the making of a 18th century fire bucket. Does anyone know Eric out there? Thought it might be worth while to pick up a copy.

In a earlier post I mentioned a cordwainer named Busch, who also did very nice Jackware. In a old copy of muzzleloader magazine from 1998 I found a small ad for John Busch-cordwainer from Delavan, Wisc. Does anyone know if Mr. Busch is still active? The only reason I ask is that I used to know some longhunter/ trkers that swore by his work.

Steve

[SteveJ]

For those of you who think I am older than sin because I remembered the articles form the 70's I just want you to know I was a mere infant at the time.

David Genadek

It's OK David, I did a lot of reading as a embryo myself.

[whinewine]

In the May '83 issue of MIWL is the fire bucket article by Larry Coleman & Lee Hodges; in March '81 is an article on "The Leather Bottell", by David W. Frantz.

[SteveJ]

In the May '83 issue of MIWL is the fire bucket article by Larry Coleman & Lee Hodges; in March '81 is an article on "The Leather Bottell", by David W. Frantz.

Hey Russ,

Thanks for the info. Does MIWL have a online archive? Or can I con someone into scanning me a copy?

By the way, it's a pleasure to meet a real published author. I always heard that they can be kinda tempremental.

[Johanna]

I might have the issues mentioned. I will look tonight after the kids go to bed. Frank Zigon is a fantastic resource, btw. Thanks for reminding me to invite him to the board.

Johanna

[SteveJ]

I might have the issues mentioned. I will look tonight after the kids go to bed. Frank Zigon is a fantastic resource, btw. Thanks for reminding me to invite him to the board.

Johanna

Thank you very much Johanna. Any help is greatly appreciated.

Steve

[pepin1948]

Alright already I'm going to have to show my ignorance: WHAT THE HECK IS A BLACKJACK?

[MatthewD]

A small hard piece of leather that is used to "knock" people out

[whinewine]

Hey Russ,

Thanks for the info. Does MIWL have a online archive? Or can I con someone into scanning me a copy?

By the way, it's a pleasure to meet a real published author. I always heard that they can be kinda tempremental.

Steve: MIWL has been out of business for some years, so I don't think there is an online archive out there, but I may be wrong- who knows, someone may have compiled one! I do know that MIWL had compiled lists of articles by year when they were still publishing, but I don't have them handy- a number of my selections of MIWL magazines deteriorated over the years (I, having gone on to several different careers, totally away from leather, made 3 or 4 house moves... the magazines mostly ended in storage in excessively damp or dry or mouse infested surroundings). Some of my issues had totally gone to dust or had been gnawed so completely by rodents that they had to be thrown away. The remaining magazines I treasure- it was an interesting time then, & to look through the magazines & hear my older son say that something we did then is now 'so in', so current... (Ah, but enough of the 'good old days', that weren't, really particularly good...).

And no, I'm not really temperamental, but I sometimes get really cranked over people getting all worked up over crap that doesn't really matter in the scheme of things & totally disregarding that which really matters- and then I vent!

Unfortunately, Steve, I don't have a scanner so I can't scan any of the articles, but I hope someone out there can help you out.

Wildrose:

a 'jack' is a leather container made to hold liquid, such as water (only for putting out fires, 'cause you couldn't drink it- otherwise you'd get typhoid or dysentery), or ale, or mead, (which you could drink, and did)

- it was generally lined with pitch, or beeswax to make it waterproof so your hard cost beer didn't dribble out all the little stitching holes & drip upon your trousers. While it may have been black, it has nothing in common with a 'blackjack'

[MatthewD]

Okay this has gotten me thinking about wanting to attempt to do this with a canteen or water container but how does it effect the taste of the water or other liquids contained in them?

[Johanna]

You can use this method:

http://leatherworker.net/hardenedleather.htm

Couir Boulli

and water tastes okay. The paraffin has to be just right, though, and alcohol will eat through the paraffin, so you can't rotate beverages.

Never tried it with Coke or Pepsi, but if it were cold, would probably be okay. Canteens made like this are not okay with coffee or anything hot, of course.

Johanna