Saddle Fit: An Enduring Western Myth

[BOB BRENNER]

I am somewhat new to this media, as you can see from the date I joined. Kudos to everyone involved; it is a great asset to the industry.

While the snow was blowing sideways this weekend I spent time educating myself on the various topics and found the three year long discussion on saddle fit very interesting. Mr Watt’s statement on the OK Corral is spot on,"Them there is fighting words" I have spent a lot of time over the years on the subject of saddle fit, and have made several observations. It seems that the saddle fit question can be divided into two camps. One camp holds the position that while saddle fit is important it is not critical - what I will call those who make a living using horses i.e.. "cowboy". The other camp holds the position where saddle fit seems to be highly critical - what I will call the "recreational rider". These are general classifications and there are always exceptions to the rule.

I have been extremely fortunate to have been able to meet and know people who have forgotten more about horses and saddles than I will ever know. My family has been involved with horses for over 100 years starting with my grandfather who cowboy’d in the Oklahoma’s Cherokee strip in the late 1800's -- to the 1950's and 60's when the family had a cow/calf operation with about 1200 pair -- to me who started making saddles full time in the late 1970's, showed both Arabs and QH in the 1980's, have spent years trail riding, and had the privilege of spending time on working ranches of friends .

With that bit of info may I submit for your consideration my following observations.

I believe the whole controversy stems from how one uses a horse or horses. How a horse is used tends to dictate in which camp one belongs. There is a theory in design that - form follows function - in other words how something is used (function) will determine the form.

The "cowboy camp" philosophy is based on historical and "traditional" methods. As stated before, this camp does not consider saddle fit to be critical or a deal breaker because how a cowboy uses horses . One can look the U.S. cavalry as an example. The McClellan saddle used by the cavalry was basically standard with very limited variations as to bar shape, angles etc. (so a standard for trees and saddles can be done - the U.S. Cavalry did it over150 years ago) and it was used on thousands and thousands of horses for decades. This is accomplished in two ways. First, the cavalry had strict criteria as to conformation, height, and weight of their mounts to achieve uniformity. Second, how they used their horses. It has been my understanding that the order of march for the cavalry at the walk was 45 min on and 15 min off. If a saddle did have a problem with fit this lessened the problem. The 15 min off the horse took off the pressure and gave some relief to the horse. Observe women in high heels, they will slip their feet out of them from time to time to relieve the pressure but will wear them all day. Same concept.

As for cowboys, again it is similar to the cavalry. Here I am going on my experience and it may not be similar to others and you may differ. Historically the cowboy did not provide his own horse. The horses were provided by the outfit he worked for. With the ranch providing the horses they tended to either breed their own (that was the case on our ranch) or select horses that were similar in breeding and conformation. Again uniformity. Plus, most but not all cowboys understand how a saddle should fit and have the experience and savvy to properly use pads to compensate for that problem horse or saddle. Also, the way cowboys use their horses makes a difference. It has been my experience (yours may differ) and the policy of my father that one rode one horse in the morning and another in the afternoon and this is supported by the historical accounts of the great cattle drives of the late 1800's. If you did have to ride the same horse all day, he would get at least a couple of days off. I do not know if this still holds in general but, I have a good friend who breeds bucking horses with a herd of around 400 and many times I have trailered out fresh horses when they were moving them from pasture to pasture. Go back to the high heels. The "Saddle Fit" article in "The Western Horseman" I believe supports this camp, BUT.

After WWII the "recreational rider" camp has grown to where it today dominates the horse industry nationally. I consider the "recreational rider"camp to be made up of horse clubs, arena ropers, show riders, trail riders, what is called the back yard horse owner, etc. I have found that the "typical" "recreational rider" household will have two to three horses and the lady of the house is the prime influence. I have seen studies that indicate that women comprise and control 60 to 70+ percent of the horse market. This camps’ philosophy is completely different from the "cowboy"camp and is based on sport and pleasure and not work. It is this camp I believe has generated the interest both the good and the bad in the saddle fit question for the following reasons:

Number one, whether we like it or not the horse has become a pet and part of the family. So, different rules apply. If we take the advise from "The Western Horseman" article that if a "standard"saddle will not fit sell the horse, in this market it is a non starter and even a major educational session will not change the situation. It is my horse and I will not get rid of it and so I want a saddle to fit it! It has been my experience that generally this person will spend the money to make it happen.

Number two, the diversity of the horse population has increased with cross breeding, selective breeding and the introduction of breeds not generally used in the western discipline. This was highlighted and an other article in "The October 2009 Western Horseman" "Enough Already -- How will breed registries restore the balance to an overpopulated horse market?" The combinations out there are unending. This diversity has caused the production companies to come up with all types of new ideas like flexible trees, gel pads, etc. to meet this new demand. It is also why tree makers need to constantly update their patterns and if they don’t we have trouble at times using a tree makers average quarter horse or semi-quarter horse tree requiring a custom fitted tree. Several years ago another saddle maker and I were ask by a tree maker to help them update their Arabian bar pattern. I was surprised by the amount of change we saw in15 years. In the past the idea of using a draft horse as saddlehorse was unique, but now one of the major production companies has a line of saddles for draft horses.

Number three, a large portion of this camp comes from (a for the lack of better words) a non-horse background. Their knowledge about horses is derived from other sources. The clinicians, starting with Ray Hunt have had a tremendous impact on this market, I will leave it to you own opinions as to their worth. This has sparked magazine articles, books, videos and such, least of all the internet. Also, this is the technoloy age and that brings in a certain mind set. "There has to be a system" In this age we are predisposed to think that to solve a problem we must have a system. The high tech solution to a low tech problem. Thus the card system, computerized pressure systems etc. At times I get the impression that some saddle makers rely on these systems to replace their lack of expertise. With all this information, the customer is asking a lot more questions. 30 years ago, when a customer came in about all they were concerned about was the color and the tooling pattern. Now is type of ground seat, stirrup leather position, grade of leather.... At times I wonder if all this info is positive.

There is one other camp. This camp is in between the other two camps. For example: a roper with a string of roping horses or a show person with a show string. This camp will move in and out of the other camps. A show person may use one saddle on their show string, but their "champion" will have a custom fitted saddle.

So, my observation is that when it comes to saddle fit by-in-large when the dust settles no one is right and no one is wrong. It all depends on what camp you are in. As saddle makers and to some extent tree makers we need to decide which camp we want to be in. If you decide to be in the "cowboy camp" then make saddles with trees satisfies that camp’s needs. For the "recreational rider camp" do the same which may include micro-fitting with a saddle fitting system with custom fitted tree and charge accordingly. A word of caution here!!!! Do not be in say the "cowboy camp" when you live in a "recreational rider camp" market. That will spell economic disaster. I would think that a "recreational rider camp" type saddle maker would have a tough go in Elko and a "cowboy camp" saddle maker would face the same in Scottsdale, AZ.

While my heart wants to be in the "cowboy camp" the realities of the market put me in the other camp, where somehow I have kept my head above water for 30+ years.

This subject is extremely complicated with all types of related and interconnected variables and where with a change in one variable can cause a cascade effect on all the other variables. So, as I see it, this discussion needs to be ongoing. The more input we have on the subject the better off we will be. We need a lot more wet saddle blankets.

Respectfully submitted and look forward to your comments.,

Bob Brenner

[GAP]

Hi Bob, I'm pretty much a newbie to these forums too. And I also have read this thread with interest.

I would however say that proper fit is much more critical to a cowboy than the recreational rider. He's the one making a liviing out of his saddle, trying at times to fit a broad spectrum of horses. If he's soring horses, he's soon afoot, and without a job. Or even a single horse sored has to be turned out, and isn't makiing his way. Yeah its nice to trade horses when you come in and have more work to do, but often it's not an option. There are at times unfavorable conditions, like putting a big circle in, and then dragging calves the rest of the day, or maybe roping cows for fun or work? Don't matter which one, it's a part of making a horse good! Just something you couldn't do if you're having problems with your saddle.

He might ride several different types of horses in addition to the ranch horses... from colts to problem horses. There are horses that need rode more than others, maybe even camped on for 2 or 3 days straight. When you're riding hard and pulling wet blankets off all the time, if you have fitting problems, it most assuredly will show up!

A lot of difference between them and the recreational rider!

But if they're both riding western saddles, (that's all I know) I'm gonna stick with the cowboy philosophy of a general fitting tree instead of a "micro fit" to a problem back. I've got by riding lots of ill shaped backs, changing pad usage, and rode them hard too.

The rec rider might be well read on the subject more so than the cowboy. But, hands down IMO, expereince and usage count more for the horse, saddle, and rider.

I don't do a whole lot of riding anymore, but I still want the best fit possible for the type of horse I'm on, same as I would for a customer. I agree style and usage are determining factors in how the saddle is made. But.... I don't see that changing how the tree should fit the horse.

And the tree, being the whole foundation... I want the best. I started using (good?)production trees, and as my knowledge iincreased I could see the problems associated with some of them, though not all. And some problems were big, in my opinion! Some were sent back, and some were dealt with in the best way possible... since your on somewhat of a timetable. In the early 90's I finally made it to the Sheridan show, there I met Rod and Denise Nikkel, and Ben Swanke. Holy Mackerel, The difference in trees astounded me! And I liked the education they were willing to give!

There are more, I just havn't had the opportunity to try them yet. I actually think that these custom trees are probably the best in the history of mans relationship with the horse.

I'm not that much of a saddlemaker, just a beginner in fact. I still want to know that when it walks out... I did my best to give them what they want and then some. I'm not gonna try to "micro fit" some odd shaped, unsound horse, because it's got my name on it when it leaves. I don't expect a tree maker to do that either.

Sorry for the rambling thoughts,... just so much info on here to be absorbed, that I get a little lost at times.

Gary Parrish

I am somewhat new to this media, as you can see from the date I joined. Kudos to everyone involved; it is a great asset to the industry.

While the snow was blowing sideways this weekend I spent time educating myself on the various topics and found the three year long discussion on saddle fit very interesting. Mr Watt's statement on the OK Corral is spot on,"Them there is fighting words" I have spent a lot of time over the years on the subject of saddle fit, and have made several observations. It seems that the saddle fit question can be divided into two camps. One camp holds the position that while saddle fit is important it is not critical - what I will call those who make a living using horses i.e.. "cowboy". The other camp holds the position where saddle fit seems to be highly critical - what I will call the "recreational rider". These are general classifications and there are always exceptions to the rule.

I have been extremely fortunate to have been able to meet and know people who have forgotten more about horses and saddles than I will ever know. My family has been involved with horses for over 100 years starting with my grandfather who cowboy'd in the Oklahoma's Cherokee strip in the late 1800's -- to the 1950's and 60's when the family had a cow/calf operation with about 1200 pair -- to me who started making saddles full time in the late 1970's, showed both Arabs and QH in the 1980's, have spent years trail riding, and had the privilege of spending time on working ranches of friends .

With that bit of info may I submit for your consideration my following observations.

I believe the whole controversy stems from how one uses a horse or horses. How a horse is used tends to dictate in which camp one belongs. There is a theory in design that - form follows function - in other words how something is used (function) will determine the form.

The "cowboy camp" philosophy is based on historical and "traditional" methods. As stated before, this camp does not consider saddle fit to be critical or a deal breaker because how a cowboy uses horses . One can look the U.S. cavalry as an example. The McClellan saddle used by the cavalry was basically standard with very limited variations as to bar shape, angles etc. (so a standard for trees and saddles can be done - the U.S. Cavalry did it over150 years ago) and it was used on thousands and thousands of horses for decades. This is accomplished in two ways. First, the cavalry had strict criteria as to conformation, height, and weight of their mounts to achieve uniformity. Second, how they used their horses. It has been my understanding that the order of march for the cavalry at the walk was 45 min on and 15 min off. If a saddle did have a problem with fit this lessened the problem. The 15 min off the horse took off the pressure and gave some relief to the horse. Observe women in high heels, they will slip their feet out of them from time to time to relieve the pressure but will wear them all day. Same concept.

As for cowboys, again it is similar to the cavalry. Here I am going on my experience and it may not be similar to others and you may differ. Historically the cowboy did not provide his own horse. The horses were provided by the outfit he worked for. With the ranch providing the horses they tended to either breed their own (that was the case on our ranch) or select horses that were similar in breeding and conformation. Again uniformity. Plus, most but not all cowboys understand how a saddle should fit and have the experience and savvy to properly use pads to compensate for that problem horse or saddle. Also, the way cowboys use their horses makes a difference. It has been my experience (yours may differ) and the policy of my father that one rode one horse in the morning and another in the afternoon and this is supported by the historical accounts of the great cattle drives of the late 1800's. If you did have to ride the same horse all day, he would get at least a couple of days off. I do not know if this still holds in general but, I have a good friend who breeds bucking horses with a herd of around 400 and many times I have trailered out fresh horses when they were moving them from pasture to pasture. Go back to the high heels. The "Saddle Fit" article in "The Western Horseman" I believe supports this camp, BUT.

After WWII the "recreational rider" camp has grown to where it today dominates the horse industry nationally. I consider the "recreational rider"camp to be made up of horse clubs, arena ropers, show riders, trail riders, what is called the back yard horse owner, etc. I have found that the "typical" "recreational rider" household will have two to three horses and the lady of the house is the prime influence. I have seen studies that indicate that women comprise and control 60 to 70+ percent of the horse market. This camps' philosophy is completely different from the "cowboy"camp and is based on sport and pleasure and not work. It is this camp I believe has generated the interest both the good and the bad in the saddle fit question for the following reasons:

Number one, whether we like it or not the horse has become a pet and part of the family. So, different rules apply. If we take the advise from "The Western Horseman" article that if a "standard"saddle will not fit sell the horse, in this market it is a non starter and even a major educational session will not change the situation. It is my horse and I will not get rid of it and so I want a saddle to fit it! It has been my experience that generally this person will spend the money to make it happen.

Number two, the diversity of the horse population has increased with cross breeding, selective breeding and the introduction of breeds not generally used in the western discipline. This was highlighted and an other article in "The October 2009 Western Horseman" "Enough Already -- How will breed registries restore the balance to an overpopulated horse market?" The combinations out there are unending. This diversity has caused the production companies to come up with all types of new ideas like flexible trees, gel pads, etc. to meet this new demand. It is also why tree makers need to constantly update their patterns and if they don't we have trouble at times using a tree makers average quarter horse or semi-quarter horse tree requiring a custom fitted tree. Several years ago another saddle maker and I were ask by a tree maker to help them update their Arabian bar pattern. I was surprised by the amount of change we saw in15 years. In the past the idea of using a draft horse as saddlehorse was unique, but now one of the major production companies has a line of saddles for draft horses.

Number three, a large portion of this camp comes from (a for the lack of better words) a non-horse background. Their knowledge about horses is derived from other sources. The clinicians, starting with Ray Hunt have had a tremendous impact on this market, I will leave it to you own opinions as to their worth. This has sparked magazine articles, books, videos and such, least of all the internet. Also, this is the technoloy age and that brings in a certain mind set. "There has to be a system" In this age we are predisposed to think that to solve a problem we must have a system. The high tech solution to a low tech problem. Thus the card system, computerized pressure systems etc. At times I get the impression that some saddle makers rely on these systems to replace their lack of expertise. With all this information, the customer is asking a lot more questions. 30 years ago, when a customer came in about all they were concerned about was the color and the tooling pattern. Now is type of ground seat, stirrup leather position, grade of leather.... At times I wonder if all this info is positive.

There is one other camp. This camp is in between the other two camps. For example: a roper with a string of roping horses or a show person with a show string. This camp will move in and out of the other camps. A show person may use one saddle on their show string, but their "champion" will have a custom fitted saddle.

So, my observation is that when it comes to saddle fit by-in-large when the dust settles no one is right and no one is wrong. It all depends on what camp you are in. As saddle makers and to some extent tree makers we need to decide which camp we want to be in. If you decide to be in the "cowboy camp" then make saddles with trees satisfies that camp's needs. For the "recreational rider camp" do the same which may include micro-fitting with a saddle fitting system with custom fitted tree and charge accordingly. A word of caution here!!!! Do not be in say the "cowboy camp" when you live in a "recreational rider camp" market. That will spell economic disaster. I would think that a "recreational rider camp" type saddle maker would have a tough go in Elko and a "cowboy camp" saddle maker would face the same in Scottsdale, AZ.

While my heart wants to be in the "cowboy camp" the realities of the market put me in the other camp, where somehow I have kept my head above water for 30+ years.

This subject is extremely complicated with all types of related and interconnected variables and where with a change in one variable can cause a cascade effect on all the other variables. So, as I see it, this discussion needs to be ongoing. The more input we have on the subject the better off we will be. We need a lot more wet saddle blankets.

Respectfully submitted and look forward to your comments.,

Bob Brenner

Edited February 18, 2010 by GAP

[Newfman]

These are very informative posts indeed.

I just finished reading an article, "INSIGHTS FROM 7 TOP SADDLE FITTERS" in the March 2010 edition of DRESSAGE TODAY. No, I'm not a cross dresser !! It is my other halfs magazine as she is an Easterner.

First and foremost, it was incredibly uninformative. There was a lot of patting one's self on the back. What little I did eke out was that the "High End' saddle makers lean a bit toward "Micro Fitting". That being said, there was some indication that adjustable tree saddles are possibly going to be a strengthening trend, as the idea of a single saddle, fitting a particular horse through a longer range of development garners popularity. I also feel that, both in reading and from spending time around 'Eastern' barns, that, saddles are as much a fashion statement and status symbol as anything else. Often times the name is what matters most. The article also tended to be more about the saddle fitting the rider, so that the rider can be in a better place for the horse and very little was mentioned about the actual fitting process in regards to the horse. I was surprised, but should not have been.

The "close contact" of the English style saddle and the much smaller contact area, due to the smaller tree may lend itself better to "micro fitting" but, one must consider if the horse is in a higher end of competition, or, more in the entry level. The amount of physical change that one may see in a Dutch Warmblood is incredible when you compare his conformation from the time that he is first started under saddle (usually around 3 to 4 years of age) to the time that he is performing at Prix St. Georges, FEI, Grand Prix, etc. which is in the 9 to 12 year old range (generally speaking). The "finished" horses are pretty much at their full development, and the money involved with this 'class' of horse tends to run in the millions. So, an $8,000 dollar custom saddle along with being able to say you flew your saddle maker in from Germany to fit it, is just a drop in the bucket. The unfortunate part is, this kind of thing is almost flaunted, and the many thousands of wannabes lap up this goosh of excessiveness, as they read articles about it in magazines or hear their "hero's" talk about it in interviews. There is a constant scramble for the latest and greatest, and it often times has nothing to do with the horse. When you see a horse short striding and blocked, you may think it has a poor fitting saddle, (though I look at the feet first), but the rider will be quick to correct you, as it is a brand new $4,500 Jaguar! The store rep. fit it personally! What the store rep. may have fit, was a saddle the size of the dollar signs in your eyes, and the fact that you couldn't stop talking about how your instructor rides a Jaguar saddle. I know a woman that would buy a custom micro-fit saddle for every horse she has and at every stage of it's life if she realized it was possible. Yet, I don't even recall ever having seen her ride any of them.

I think that many of you have hit the nail on the head. Custom fitting has become "over done" not "over rated". While some saddle makers may try to out 'fit' other saddle makers, it is ridiculous to try to "micro-fit" something as dynamic as a horse. I think the article in WESTERN HORSEMAN was an eye opener. I think it was very responsible reporting, as it reaches the general western riding public, and it comes from those highly sought after names. I think it falls directly in line with what many of you say here. If you are a working cowboy, you just don't have the budget for a saddle for every horse and a 28' straight truck to transport them all around for you. You also tend to ride "typee" horses, for lack of a better word. If you are a hobby- horse collector and like a variety of breeds, you are looking at having a variety of saddles. If you are a show horseman, you probably have your work/training saddle or 2 and a "Star Saddle" for your "Star Horse".

I think it is great that the weekend warrior, is trying so hard to do what is "right" or good for their horse. Ignorant or not, it is at least about the horse. So, while some makers or production companies may choose to take advantage of it and ride the gravy train while it is still on the tracks, I take solace in the fact that I have been afforded the opportunity to inquire and get opinions from such an eclectic group of knowledgeable people here on leatherworker.net.

Now...how cool is that!?!?!

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

I spent some time this morning typing out the following post, then got on here and read Newfman’s post. Interesting…

The idea that one saddle can be specifically shaped to fit one particular horse is what a lot of owners have in their minds as a "custom fit saddle". I have wondered where this idea comes from, since it certainly isn't from the people who work from their saddles on multiple horses, nor is it from the western saddle making industry. The one thing people on this forum seem to be unanimous on is that we don't want to build one tree or saddle for one specific horse. I believe this idea probably comes from the world of English saddles where the panels are stuffed with wool and that stuffing can be changed, within limits, to accommodate the idiosyncrasies of an individual horse. The original "saddle fitters" would have been the saddlers who did the stuffing. Now there are people who don't make saddles (therefore their understanding of how they work is often less extensive) but who restuff them. And there is the whole area of CAIR and FLAIR saddles where the panels have air rather than wool and the air pressure in some of these panels can be varied, supposedly to "custom fit" the saddle by a "saddle fitter". If you want to use that saddle on another horse regularly, the current idea is that you NEED to restuff or change the air in them to fit that horse as opposed to the last one, so you NEED a "saddle fitter" to make sure your saddle will work on THIS specific horse. (I can see where the promotion of that idea may come from too.) And, like a lot of the "saddle fit rules", this idea of what a "custom made saddle" is has been transferred over to western saddles even though it does not apply. Once built, a western saddle has a shape that doesn't change. All western "saddle fitters" can do, so far as I can tell from reading the net, is either arrive with a trailer load of saddles to try on and figure out which one will work best for that horse or work with pads and/or shims to account for the idiosyncrasies in each horse's back. (The advisability of doing this, the competence of the people involved, etc. etc. is a whole other topic I'm consciously staying away from here.) So a "custom fitted" western saddle is simply one that has been evaluated by somebody who says that the basic shape of this saddle matches the basic shape of this horse. This is what saddle makers, tree makers, and competent horsemen do all the time and why people who fit into the "working camp" of Bob's post generally don’t have much use for the idea of saddle fitters or custom fit saddles. On the other hand, the "recreational camp" people often don't have the experience to judge the shapes well, and are more likely to believe the "one shape to fit one horse" idea that is being perpetrated in the horse world these days, not understanding where it has come from. And once that idea is ingrained in someone's head, it is hard to get them to see beyond it to the much simpler concept that matching shapes (following the two rules of "don't dig in anywhere" and "maximum surface area without breaking rule #1") is all that is needed. But the other side is also true. One size (or shape) does not fit all horses, and in some areas that is not yet recognized either.

[colttrainer]

I will start by saying that I believe Mr. Johnson to be correct in what he has said. Now to try & explain way I agree & I hope this comes out the way it is in my head.

I have spent 35 odd years packing horses in the mountains, ranched all my life, started colts for 30 years & have never had a horse out of service do to saddle sores (knock on wood).

That said I believe what he said is true based on my packing experience, if you look at the saw buck tree of which 95% of mine are, their bar quality is a far cry from what we use in our riding saddles to day or even of days past. But a properly balanced pack DOES NOT sore a horse, simply because the load is sitting in the proper position & not moving around, if starts being out of position then you have a sore back. Some will say that we now have adjustable plastic pack trees now & yes we do & I owner a couple but once they where set they have never been adjusted ever again.

There have been a lot of points brought up that I also feel play a role 1) breeding: to many poor horse crossed resulting more poor horses, result no conformation resulting in saddle fitting issues. 2) people: everyone that can, do own horses, but after the first 6 mos. spend more time in front of the boob tube, while their horse stands in a box stall. there are others but this post has a long history & I would have to be here for a month.

So what do we do, there again back to what Mr. Johnson said to Bruce, FIND A TREE BUILDER AND STICK WITH THEM, that way if you have that rare horse that your most common tree won't fit you can call & have slight changes made, lot easier than trying to find a different tree maker. I am sure that these tree builders are more likely to make adjustments for a regular client than they would the guy that buys 1 may be from him. Upside you & the tree builder are on the same page.

Just my 1 1/2 cents worth, who knows maybe it's not worth that much.

Al

[BOB BRENNER]

Gary,

I agree with you about critical fit. I should have phrased my thought better. When the cowboy type has a problem with the saddle not fitting the horse exactly, he will usually pad accordingly and if that does not work put the horse out to pasture, not call the vet or saddle fitter and start looking for another saddle. Thus an exact fit is not critical.

Newfman,

I work both sides of the street. A big portion of my business is English repairs and custom bridles and have made three saddles just to see if I could. From your post I see you have met or know a "Dressage Queen". I see an example of your comments about the Jaguar almost daily.

Denise,

I believe your are right about saddle fitting coming from the English discipline. There has been a large crossover from English to Western over the years. I have many clients who can be on their warmblood in the dressage ring in the morning and on a QH trail riding in the afternoon. This crossover population have brought their ideas to the western discipline with them and some of these ideas have been expanded. A couple days ago I was reading an article in a horse magazine tilted "Is Your Saddle Doing Its Job?" that said this "...from 100 years ago, tree width has changed little, with the 6.5 inches at top of bars at the front of the pomel being the common definition of "semi quarter horse" bars. This limited width choice provided by the vast majority of trees used today by western saddle makers gives little chance of getting a good saddle fit. This "one tree fits all" approach is for the convience of saddle manufactures not for the need of consumers." First time I have heard that gullet width determied "sem-QH" bars and gullet width was the main reason saddles don't fit. I did a little research and found the author’s website and it was English based, along with endurance riding. The reader could not determine the author’s slant from reading the article, which inferred that the way we make western saddles is all wrong. There many examples like this I have seen over the years. I have questioned these concepts or ideas in these articles, but once the concepts or ideas are in print good or bad it has "authority" and people will pay attention.

These crossover ideas and methods coupled with a different mind set of the "recreational rider" has changed the landscape. It has been my experience in the past when a horse was sent to a trainer it would be for say 60 to 90 days and one took riding lessons for a few weeks. Now it is not uncommon for both horse and rider to being constant training. Also, because of the "recreational rider’s" lack of general horsemanship knowledge they tend to rely on their trainer/instructor for their "expert" advice or other professionals such as a Vet or clinician and will follow that advice to the ‘t’. IE. micro saddle fit or your need this saddle or you have to have this bit, etc. Also, this group can be very competitive. If they feel that saddle fit could give them an edge they will do it.

This segment has changed and is changing the horse industry. If a genie told me 20 years ago that in 2010 we would see – Vets that specialized in chiropractic and acupuncture or computerized saddle fitting systems, people who specialize in massage for horses, have several riders stop by for a little wine and cheese... I probably have said you have got to be kidding, but that is what I have in my market now. This segment have invested a lot time, money, and effort in their advisors and do not take it kindly if you disagree. As they say "follow the money". When one spends thousands of dollars on a trail horse, my advise to get rid of the horse does not fly, they want me to solve the problem or they will find some who will. Also, they will not speak kindly of me as a saddle maker and this segment networks with each other all the time.

This saddle fit thing is out there and I think each of us will need to address it in some shape or form. Once the bell has rung, it can’t be un-rung.

Bob

[RidersChoiceSaddleCo]

I loved reading this post. So much of it rings true with day to day operations in saddle making. I may have done this wrongfully but I took Dusty to be saying, "Buy a good quality FQH bar saddle that feels good to you and if it don't fit the horse then trade horses." I get dozens of calls a week from people about this same problem. And yes I understand that most people who ride for recreation have no idea what the horse needs, and it can be dangerous to give them any information..lol. My calls always come with mass confusion because they have been online reading and generally their "so called" trainer has recommended X-brand which he or she happens to represent. The calls are from people who sometimes have purchased a dozen saddles of all bar types and makers. Generally we start with a simple withers tracing and like Denise said you look for the nearest standard because the horse will be changing anyway. I have had withers tracings that look like tee pee's and then I have had them to look like the flat land where the tee pee was sitting. Just how would a single saddle fit both these type horses? I don't know if it is just me or do you other makers feel like you are ending up with all those "Freak" horses? If an owner loves the animal and wants to share a bond with it, then as a business person and saddle maker shouldn't I do my best to give the horse and rider the best ride possible? Not just call it a freak horse and tell them to buy a cow pony. I can seem to agree that all the fitting talk may make our job harder in that the buyer may need more education if they have been studying up on saddle construction. Dusty's post did make it seem pretty simple and I wish it was. But I tend to get the calls like, " I have an extremely short and sway backed horse that can't use over a 23.5" skirt." Then when I ask, "What seat size?" or Tell me about your plans on riding, I get..."Well I am 5' 2" and weigh 420 pounds and I am not sure about the seat size." lol Do you feel my pain, fellow builders?

I can say that through the years the production end of saddlery has relied heavily on what I will say is "quarter horse bar or semi bar" in such brands as Ralide. I know most of you don't deal with the lower priced saddles but let me pick your brain about this. It is my personal opinion that with the influx of the recreation rider and the explosion of the "training movement", better quality feed and supplements, the horses of today seem to be outgrowing the old standard molds. I bet we build 50-100 saddles a year for folks with 15 hand quarter horses that end up using a draft bar because they are so wide. Any thoughts on this or have you noticed changes?

[BOB BRENNER]

Jerry,

I find your observations and ideas refreshing. I feel your pain. Over the past few years the customers you describe have become over 50% of my business. The world of saddle making is changing. Dusty was correct as to getting a new horse, but that was based on a business model in the saddle market 20 to 30 years ago. That business model still works. The problem is that in today's market that portion of the saddle is static or decreasing, while this new segment of the market is growing. The reasons for this is another subject. We as saddle makers need to re-evaluate our concepts to reflect this new market.

I agree with you as to trees. I have been using a Ralide tree for around 20 years in one of my saddles and in the past I have found that it would fit around 90% of the horses in my market. That percentage has dropped over the past few years. In my market, I am seeing a different quarter horse body type. A shorter back and a heavier wither. Back in the 90's, I started shortening the front tip of my bars. Lately I have begun to shorten the back tip of the bars.

Last year I went to one of the production tree makers that supplies trees to some of the major production saddle companies to make trees for me for a new saddle I am developing. I asked for their "semi-quarter" bars. When I got the tree in went out to my "foundation" quarter horse and checked the fit. The fit was negative. OK, only one horse, so that weekend went out and checked the tree on 27 other horses. The result was only 3 horses had an acceptable fit. I had about a 90% failure rate. If I had a 90% failure in fit, then one could say those production saddle companies using the same tree would have the same result. Thus, a possible factor in the emergence of this new market.

So, yes I have seen changes. As a footnote, I redesigned the bars, am using the tree with no problems. Added a little more twist and flare in the bars.

For your consideration,

Bob

Edited October 31, 2011 by BOB BRENNER

[saddlerlew]

Saddle fit is indeed confusing, and it is important. But you can't micromanage it. It isn't practical. Fit starts with the saddle tree, and even tree makers disagree on specifics. It only makes sense, if you have a wide backed horse, you need a wide angle saddle. If you have a narrow backed horse, you need a narrow angled saddle. If you have a short backed horse you need a shorter tree. It's hard, if not impossible to find a perfect fit, because the horses back is in motion whenever he's moving. a saddle that is too wide in the gullet, but has the proper angle, will sit too low in the front and throw the rider out of balance. I can give you a hundred scenarios, and I've seen every one. Most horses never complain, or if they do their riders don't understand what they're saying. Fit also depends on the skill; level of the rider. Someone who never collects their horse can use a closer fit in the middle of the back than someone who is rounding his horse to use his back end . The center of the back will lift from a 1/4" to 1/2" or more, so you need to build in a little bridging for the horse to round into. There is so much controversy on this, I'm still studying, trying to find the right answer. Dave is certainly knowledgable about saddle trees. He probably doesn't remember me, but I met him at a rest stop in Bowling Green, Ky, when I worked for Crates Leather, and have followed his career from a distance. I've talked with Len Brown, and though he's a little hard to follow with his scattered wording and strange capitalization, he has some good ideas. But a saddle should fit as least as good as we fit our shoes. Get as close as you can to the right angles, place the saddle so it interferes as little as possible with the shoulder movement, and helps keep the rider balanced. It stands to reason the rider needs to know when they are balanced. An effort at getting a decent fit is better than no effort at all. Saddlerlew

[thenrie]

What a great thread! Over five years and still getting new posts! It would be nice if the moderator could delete some of the "plant fiber vs animal fiber" posts and some of the little one-line flamers. At least a full page could be deleted and make this thread easier to get good info from.

I have been riding and handling horses for over 40 years. I recently decided to start learning to make saddles and other tack, mostly for gifts. I started seeing articles about fitting horses and taking measurements, etc. and started worrying that I had been missing something. I have even read several times where saddle-makers have said that older saddles won't fit modern horses. Boy, did that take me down an notch! So what am I going to do with my 1947 Hamley? Dusty's article, that started this thread, brought me great relief. After reading through every post, and judging, as well, from my own experience, I have come to some conclusions:

Different breeds of horses have different backs. That's why we have tree makers that make QH bars, Semi-QH bars, etc.

Horses' backs change over the years. What fits one 3-year-old horse this year, probably won't fit so well when he's 20, but in all likelihood it won't make much difference to him under most conditions.

Whether or not a $5,000 custom saddle fits my horse better than a $150 used Circle Y is less relevant than whether the saddle fits me better...$4,700 worth better.

Saddles are status symbols, just like cars. You will see "$30-a-month" cowhands riding $5,000 custom saddles, but not because it makes them better cowhands than the one who rides the ranch stock saddle in the barn. If you can afford an expensive custom saddle, that's great! I have always wanted one, I can't afford one. My cheap saddles have worked fine. Just because you can't own a $5,000 saddle, doesn't necessarily make you a poor horseman. The fact that you don't own one may indicate you are frugal, rather than poor. Now don't get me wrong. I am a confirmed proponent of "the right tool for the right job", and normally the right tool is a bit more expensive than an off-the-shelf item, but it doesn't need to be gold-plated to get the job done. I don't feel inclined to pay for "artwork" in a working saddle. Some do. Nothing wrong with that. In fact, I wish I could afford it. Maybe one day I'll be good enough as a saddle-maker to make myself one. That's the only way I'll ever have one. Having said that, sometimes a gold-plated tool is necessary due to the work at hand, say, for a show saddle, or a trophy saddle. Nothing wrong with a cowboy or cowgirl blowing their life's savings on that once-in-a-lifetime saddle. Just remember, it will probably look like my 1947 Hamley in 50 years, and it will lay on the backs of dozens of horses in that time.

My Hamley (custom made for my wife's uncle, which I inherited because nobody in her family wanted it) is the most comfortable saddle I have ever sat. It beats my $150 used Circle Y all to heck on my backside, but my horse doesn't seem to notice much difference.

I enjoy long pack trips. I have ridden more than 100 miles on a single trip, in an old Simco student saddle. Both horse and rider did fine. I have put hundreds of miles on a number of saddles, whose manufacturers I couldn't even name. Never have I had a saddle sore on my horses (although I have been sore a time or two). I had a Quarter Horse that, in her old age, began to "blow-up" toward the end of a long day. I wondered whether it was because of many miles with an ill-fitting saddle, until I started learning about an ailment in some QHs that cause them to "bind-up" - muscle cramps. Not a saddle problem at all. Just too many miles in one day on an old horse. I have a lot of miles on myself now. I tend to get muscle cramps in my feet. Now I know why she blew up a few times. In my old age, I like riding my Hamley much better than my Circle Y. When I'm 90 I probably won't be able to lift my Hamley to my horse's back, but I might be able to lift the Circle Y.

I find that most people tend to tighten their cinches too much. Mostly a problem with novices. It seems the ladies are the worst offenders. I guess some of them feel like they are weak, so they must pull harder on that latigo, not realizing how much leverage they get with two wraps through the rigging and cinch ring. Makes horses "cinchy". I have ridden many miles with the cinch hanging loose under the horse's belly. On a reliable horse, on level terrain, I'm ok with that. All you need is to keep the saddle in place. It should be just tight enough to keep the saddle where it should be for the activity you will be doing. Don't try roping with your cinch loose like mine! Again, not a saddle fit problem.

If you weigh 300 pounds. Saddle fitting is not going to help much. Get a big horse and a big saddle.

So, in fine, here is my current practice on saddle fitting:

Right now I am working with two horses. One is a 20-year-old QH gelding getting some refresher training. One day I noticed that the saddle his owner (a novice horsewoman) threw on him - a very nice Texas-made western pleasure show saddle- came close to hitting his withers in the gullet. She cured that by putting two blankets on him. I suggest she try my Hamley and one blanket. I don't know, but I suspect it has what might be considered Semi-QH bars nowadays. Anyway, it fits him like a charm, and I don't worry about the saddle hitting his withers. I am also working with a "green-broke" (that can mean just about anything here in Virginia) 7 year-old QH-type grade mare. Nice conformation. Looks QH, except for her very flat back. My Hamley seems to look like it pinches her a little at the withers. Sits a bit high. My $150 used Circle Y fits her nicely, looks right, doesn't move around.

I think sometimes we tend to take everything to the "Nth degree", particularly when it is something we call our craft. We tend to try for perfection. In reality, most of those tiny details have no effect on the use of the item we have created, but they show our love for our craft, our pride in our work. People tend to gravitate to that kind of work, and pay good money for it. Some folks take that even further and begin to "sell" their nth degree as a necessity to those who know no better. I think some of this saddle-fitting stuff falls into that category. Mainly, though, I agree with most of what Dusty said. Except for some specific problems with specific horses, wide saddles for wide horses, narrow ones for narrow horses. Outside of that, roping trees for ropers, big seats for big riders, long stirrup leathers for tall folks, etc. The custom saddle is mostly for the rider, not the horse.

Edited September 5, 2012 by thenrie

[JinxedDream]

I really enjoyed this thread. Looks like I'm not as "out there" as some of the people around me like to make me believe. Not a saddle-maker but that's what I'm working towards.

I never understood the "microfitting" crowd. I buy my saddles to fit me and then I go buy the horse that fits the saddle. Or sometimes I end up with a horse worth keeping around and I'll get them a better fitting saddle. As long as the horse isn't sore, isn't trying to buck me out of the saddle and moves freely under the saddle, I consider it a reasonable fit. I should note that I buy auction horses, I'm not that picky. I don't fit the mold of the current rider market so when I find a saddle that fits me, I'm very happy.

I really like that someone pointed that rider position can have a lot to do with fit and the comfort of the horse. Some people, I'm sorry to say this, don't belong a horse. An off-balance out of shape rider can do more damage in an hour than an ill-fitting saddle will. Combine the two, leave the horse in that situation for a few months and I'll pick them up for a couple hundred at the next sale. It's also amazing what a horse will put up with when you can actually ride reasonably well. I look at photos of my first horse and saddle now and wonder how she never got tempted to throw me in the creek. Very narrow tree, huge fleece pad and stirrups sitting too far back. Rode everywhere for hours on end for close to 5 years and that horse was never lame or sore.

The trick is really to find that middle range of the horses someone rides and then find a good quality saddle that will last them 20 years.

[rufusjames]

Being that I play Polocrosse (basically Lacrosse on horseback) with my horses I do not follow the micro fitting either. When I play I am rarely riding perfectly. Nor is my horse just standing on level ground. I hang off the side at a full run to retrieve a ball off of the ground,slide stop,180-360 degree spin,launch forward,stop again, roll back,spin, back up quickly all at full speed for 8 minutes at a time... If there is a way to fit all of those body positions perfectly, I want to hear about it. I believe there are too many variables in my riding to achieve that "perfect" fit. If my horses are not sore or uncomfortable, the saddle does not roll off, slide off the back,or up over their neck, then I believe it fits well enough.

RJ

[barbiesdude]

I to want to pursue saddle making. I have had a couple made and what I did was have my maker come out and throw some trees up on my horses and see which one fit the common ground (back). I knew I wanted a wade and we went with a bowden Ray Hunt and a Laporte old wade. I ride horses for a living and the only issue I have had in 4 years was on a big Walker which the bar angle and width fit but the rigging placement wasn't right. It was probably 7/8 and should've been 5/8 because after a few minutes you would be setting on his croup. So I know one size doesn't fit all even if good quality but I don't believe in "micro fitting" either, middle of the road I guess.

[californianinkansas]

This thread has been very illuminating for me; it "made clear that which was opaque."

Many thanks,

Amber

Abilene, KS