Saddle Fit: An Enduring Western Myth

[Dusty Johnson]

You are missing the point completely. You talk about "fitting" and then go on about repadding to meet your needs. Why a custom saddle? Because (in most cases) they are built with more care and are stronger than production rigs. The saddlemaker (if he is good) insures that trees are straight, riggings are even and customers needs are met. Production saddles sometimes meet these criteria, but not always.

Face it, all the talk about "custom fit" to the horse just scares the devil out of the average horse owner and drives him away from custom saddles and maybe even the industry in general. The manner that the rider handles himself while aboard is the most important variable in this whole scene. Educate yourself and your customer and you will improve your business and the industry. Care and concern for the customer and the horse is important ... proving you are some kind of "expert" only satisfies your ego.

[David Genadek]

If we are to be professionals and command professional prices then we must offer a level of expertise beyond that of the average horse owner. I am not currently doing custom saddles I will customize them to a degree but I will only do a custom tree if I feel the horse is of a back type I will see again and again. For instance I just did a tree for a Gypsy Varner and there is no way they could have found what they needed elsewhere. My business is built on proper fit. The majority of my customers have gone through 5 to 10 saddles before they come to me. The come to me because I can help them get the result they want which is comfort for both them and thier horse. They come ot me because I can show and explain to them why things are doing what they are doing.

Dusty, You said that there are three variables the horse the Human and the saddle. Here is the beginning of your fuzzy thuoght process. Those are not vairables they are catagories of vairables. Under the horse you really only have two vairables rib cage shape and orientation. Both of these are just part of the conformation of the horse. Ribcage shape can change to a small degree relative to the angles that the ribs come off the spine because there is a joint there but there is not a lot of flexibility there so it is minnimul factor in the equation. However there are different angles on differnt ribcage shapes and that is why twist shoud not be left out of the tree equation. The top line is the most variable because of the up and down undulations and because of it's relationship to the horses ring of muscles. Bottom line is anything that effects the horses ring of muscles will effect saddle fit. The most fundamental element to consider here is straightness. A horse is straight when when it's sternum is in the center of it's two front legs. They do not have a collar bone like we do so this is a critical element of horsemanship. If they are not straight they can not collect if they are straight they will collect.The concept of straightness combned with a fundamental knowledge of how the ring of muscles works gives the saddle maker the ability to assess if the horse is in a physical state that a tree should be fit to it. Suddenly it is not so overwelming. Orientation is found by looking at the horses base of neck relative to the point of hip. The saddles oreintation should be directly opposite the horses. Not so hard.

Now lets take the human catagory. Like the horse they must be straight and using their ring muscles. Then we have to throw in hieght and wieght but these things are easily taken care of with seat size and fender leangth. Lastly we have the most important varable in the human which is the philosophical mind set.

There has been batle between two major philosophies since the beginning of horsemanship. The two philosophies are Jineta and Brida. Jineta is what we would call a balanced seat today. Part of this mind set is that the horse is a partner and the equipment is designed for communication. Brida is the seat that evolved from Joiusting. Legs forward butt plastered against the saddle. Jineta saddles evolved into western saddles

and Brida saddles evolved into English saddles. However today the philosophies are very mixed together and you will find both seats in english and western. In western saddlery we used to call Brida saddles parade saddles and Jineta saddles work saddles. Here Dusty lies one of your greatest confusions you ar putting brida seats in work saddles so it is no wonder you are drawing the conclusions you are drawing. If you become deliberate in your seat shapes your perspective will quickly change. Your concepts on the cincching will also alter greatly. If you choose Brida over Jineta then you are right saddle fit is not part of your reality. But for those of use who choose Jineta it is. I accept this as an age old battle and respect your right to pursue your Brida reality. I however, stand firmly in the world of Jineta.

Lastly we have the a variables in the saddle . These are all defined by the shapes created by the variable in the horse and human. First the tree the bars have twist rock and flair and they are combined by

the front and back arches to create the saddles orientation. Then we have seat size which will be dictated by the humans shape and thier riding philosphy. The fender shape and leangth will be dictated by the same.

So it really isn't an impossible situation when you have the right paradigems to work from. You have preconditions to saddle fit. The horse must be straight and properly using it's ring of muscles and like wise with the human or there will be problems. The saddle must accomadate the varaibles in both. There are a limited number of ribcage shapes in horses which becomes very apparent when you learn to see just the rib cage and don't let the rest of the horses conformation confuse you.

The electronic pads could be good tool but I agree that they get miss used. In fact I made public statements to that effect at many expos so was I challenged by one of the companies to demonstrate during one of thier demos. I went first and had to say what the readind would be. Now I couldn't tell the pounds per inch but I didn't miss a hot spot then I took it one step further and and showed how to make it even which the folks with pad had no clue how to do. So in those few minutes I demonstrated to several hundred people that I had the knowledge that could actually help them and thier horse.

One of my mentors ,Dan Crates, alwasy said " The second you start believeing your own publicity your in trouble."

David Genadek

I'm with Blake on the spell check, although it usually pops up a message that says "We Have No Clue What Your Trying to Spell" Does anyone else get that message

[Romey]

When I use spell check in Microsoft word it says " your kidding right? I dont have that kinda time."

Edited May 5, 2007 by Romey

[Johanna]

What's wrong with the spell check, guys? I'm not seeing any problems, so I need to know if something isn't working right on your end. Send me a PM so we don't clutter this interesting thread.

Johanna

[David Genadek]

Then the real question is how do we use spell check? Where is it? Hey we are a bunch of leather heads. David Genadek

What's wrong with the spell check, guys? I'm not seeing any problems, so I need to know if something isn't working right on your end. Send me a PM so we don't clutter this interesting thread. Johanna

[Dusty Johnson]

David,

Wow! Gosh! Gee willikers, am I impressed! Apparently (according to you) I have wasted half a century of saddlemaking and deluded hundreds of working cowboys, saddle students and dedicated pleasure riders. I must also be leading many others astray with over 80,000 books and videos that I have sold, eh?

I didn’t say anything to insult anyone on this forum but you have to start out with insults , i.e. “fuzzy though processâ€Â. Did anyone ever point out that you can learn more by courtesy than by confrontation? This last posting of yours harks back to what I said before about egos. Discussion with people who are only trying to impress is a waste of time.

Enjoy your mental masturbation. This ignorant old saddlemaker is done wasting time with egomaniacs.

Adios.

[Romey]

"Wow! Gosh! Gee willikers, am I impressed! Apparently (according to you) I have wasted half a century of saddlemaking and deluded hundreds of working cowboys, saddle students and dedicated pleasure riders. I must also be leading many others astray with over 80,000 books and videos that I have sold, eh?"

Thatd be my guess

"I didn’t say anything to insult anyone on this forum but you have to start out with insults , i.e. “fuzzy though processâ€Â.

Uh yea you did

"I must also be leading many others astray with over 80,000 books and videos that I have sold, eh?"

To quote you "Discussion with people who are only trying to impress is a waste of time."

Personally Your the only one trying to tell the rest of the world we are wrong and who knows perhaps everyone but you is wrong, Ill accept that if its, try and kindly ask you to teach me but I damn well know you wouldnt be talking down to me to do nor should you to anyone else on this or any forum.

Everyone here is good people with a crap load of points of views and we try to bounce ideas of leather making and various crafts off each other. Your the only one i ever seen tell someone they were wrong. Talking down to folks isnt a very good way of teaching. As for impressing of years, I showed your post to a 82 year old saddlemaker friend who started in 1945 and he laughed at your "years" and your views of fitting" He had a bunch to say but ill digress

Sir, nothing here got personal until you made it personal. If I in anyway offened you, or anyone else on this forum in previous posts I stongly apologize. If anyone feels I need removed do to speaking my mind, well so be it.

[pepin1948]

I am concerned with the tone this topic is taking and am going to advise that the moderators to look into it.

[bruce johnson]

Well OK, that will be one vote for bars and bar patterns apparently don't matter much. For those still with us, the thread about bars and bottoms is still available for viewpoints and discussion.

Bruce Johnson

[dsenette]

i'm with rose...david, romey, and dusty...be civil or don't post...it's ok to have a discussion or disagreement...but keep it on task...we'll chalk the current "digressions" up to a heated debate...but if you continue down the path you're going on...then "we" will have to take action...please check your tone and continue in a civil manner