stitch quality of the Adler clones compare to that of the juki 441 clones.

[esantoro]

Though it is some time off before I'll have two cylinder arm machines, I was wondering how the stitch quality of the Adler clones compare to that of the juki 441 clones.

Ed

[Luke Hatley]

ED IF YOU ARE LOOKING FOR ANOTHER MACHINE.

TALK TO DON OR DARRIN AT INDUSTRIAL SEWING MACHINE SALES

IN OHIO.

I HAVE ONE OF THEIR SEWMO MACHINES AND I REALLY LIKE IT...

I LIKE THE CONCEPT OF THE ADLER OVER THE JUKI...AND YOU WILL ALSO.

THOES ARE A PAIR OF CHINKS I FINISHED LAST WEEK.

Edited December 23, 2007 by Luke Hatley

[esantoro]

Luke,

that's a nice machine. I'm a year or two away from realistically considering a second big machine, but I thought I'd start early doing the research and looking around.

Your machine and the 441 use the same needle system, right?

ed

[Luke Hatley]

ANYTHING THAT THE ADLER 205-370 USES THE SEWMO DOES ALSO.

THE NEEDLE SYSTEM IS 794S.

[Art]

Hi Ed,

They are both threaded needle machines, both hook systems are tried and true; they will both stitch the same. If you want a tighter stitch, you will have to use a Campbell or a Randal, or a Union needle and awl machine. If you are currently using a 441, I would stay with that family of machine unless it is doing something that you don't like. They clone Jukis and Adlers, must be a reason for that, one thing is the availability of parts for them, another is that they work and last pretty well.

Art

Though it is some time off before I'll have two cylinder arm machines, I was wondering how the stitch quality of the Adler clones compare to that of the juki 441 clones.

Ed

[bcurrier]

Same stitch. The Adler design does require a special gauge tool to time it. You can time a 441 type visually.

[esantoro]

I had heard a while ago that the adlers have or once had more of a problem being used with a range of thread thicknesses, that one would have to install an appropriately sized spacer -- which keeps the needle the correct distance from the hook -- when changing needles sizes.

Even the 441 manual includes mention of such spacers. I've been meaning to locate a couple of these spacers for when I want to use a #23 needle on my 441. I've also been looking unsuccessfully for thin copper shim stock that would allow me to adjust the spacing easily without having to pay for actual spacers.

Ed

[tonyc1]

You can buy these spacers from Weavers.

[esantoro]

You can buy these spacers from Weavers.

Hi Tony,

Do you have any idea how much these spacers run for the 441?

Thanks,

Ed

[tonyc1]

Hi Ed,They are $3.15 each and there are 4 of them.Forgot to add that they come in #160,#200, #230 and #250.

[esantoro]

Hi Tony,

Those are great prices. I thought they were going to be priced outrageously. I don't have a Weaver catalog. Do you by chance have the measurements for each of those spacers? I don't want to order the spacer I already have. And these spacers are for the Juki clones and not the adlers? Or does it matter.

Thanks again for this info, as I had been wondering where I was going to get these.

Ed

[esantoro]

I was just playing with the shuttle, hook, race and spacer for my 441. I tried making a shim out of aluminum from a soda can.

Here's what I found out:

1. The spacing ring on my 441 is 3.48mm thick. It works very well with 26 needles and well with 25 needles. I'd like to find a bit thicker spacer for 24 needles.

2. The aluminum from the soda can is .10mm thick and doesn't seem worthwhile as a shim -- too flimsy and will not last long.

If anyone with a 441 (ferdco, cowboy, artisan, sewmo, neel's, cobra, etc.) has the time and remembers, could he or she measure the thickness of the spacing ring? I'm curious to know if there is a variance in spacing ring thickness among manufacturers and distributors.

Thanks,

Ed

[jimsaddler]

I was just playing with the shuttle, hook, race and spacer for my 441. I tried making a shim out of aluminum from a soda can.

Here's what I found out:

1. The spacing ring on my 441 is 3.48mm thick. It works very well with 26 needles and well with 25 needles. I'd like to find a bit thicker spacer for 24 needles.

2. The aluminum from the soda can is .10mm thick and doesn't seem worthwhile as a shim -- too flimsy and will not last long.

If anyone with a 441 (ferdco, cowboy, artisan, sewmo, neel's, cobra, etc.) has the time and remembers, could he or she measure the thickness of the spacing ring? I'm curious to know if there is a variance in spacing ring thickness among manufacturers and distributors.

Thanks,

Ed

Hey Esantro

My input is that you can use #24 needles on the 441 clones as long as you use a Feed Dog (bottom Feed) without using an extra Shim. The Adler Clones come complete with the required Shims. Also include the Timing device (I've never had to use it though). That is if you buy from Cowboy, Master or Neels as I'm not familiar with the rest.

In the 441 clones, Cowboy, Master & Neels come with a Toothed and a Smooth Feed Dog in the Package. I personally prefer the 441 as it is uncomplicated and does the same Stitch but has more scope. I've used #23 needles also and had no problems, except having to adjust the Tensions a little bit. Just wish I'd had the 441 Clone 40 years ago. I just measured the Spacer ring on my Master 441 and it is 3.52mm. that may be why these will take the finer needles so well.

I might add that the 105 (& 45K25) Clone is a better machine for decorative stitching and I use it for nice fine (#10 & 12 spi ) decorative Stitching on Harness (Patent Leather) The Borrom feed system has its drawbacks but is still my beloved second Machine.

I used to use Brown Paper or Gasket Paper for Shims in old worn, 45K25's, Oil doesn't affect it and I've removed paper shims 20 years old that were still working well. I've also seen Aluminium Foil used by Sewing Mach Mechanic and it seemed to work allright. What I'm getting at is the 45K was the Leather Machine of the last Century and so there were so many ways of making them sew better even when they were worn out. Now we're finding out how to make our 441's work better.

Love to see your comments on machines, shows you're inquisitive and that's the only way to learn.

Kindest Regards.

Jim.

[esantoro]

Hi Jim,

I measured the girth of my needles at the eye hole:

Schmetz 26 is 1.95mm: I think my Neel's Model 6 (441) works the best with this needle and the spacer mentioned.

Schmetz 25 is 1.65mm: My machine works well with this needle but I would consider shimming .15mm for absolute best results.

Organ 24 is 1.54mm: I would consider shimming .2mm for this needle, but I'm not using Organ needles much these days.

Schmetz 24 is 1.45mm: Because I'm pretty much sold on going without a feeddog and using a slotted needle plate for the work I do, I would say that a .25mm shim is definitely needed with this needle. Perhaps this and a 23 are the two needles that would benefit from a .25 mm shim.

The above shim thicknesses are added to the standard 3.48mm spacing ring that came with my 441. I deally I'd like to be able to purchase additional spacing rings of various sizes. Because each machine is most likely milled just a tad differently, the actual sizing in millimeters will probably be different for each machine. As it stands, I'd like to be able to find a spacing ring or rings in the range of 3.68mm to 3.77mm in thickness.

I've already tried cutting a .10mm outline of the spacing ring from an aluminum soda/beer can and found that it is too difficult to work with, especially with frequent installation and removal. Added to that is the fact that I would need to double up the shims to get the thickness needed. Might there be an easier method to shimming than trying to duplicate the outline of the stock spacing ring? For example, might it be enough to use just three or four small sections of shimming material temporarily held in place by a thin film of oil during installation? Ideally, instead of shimming, which is beginning to seem like a real pain, I'd like to be able to have spacing rings of different thicknesses, or maybe just one additional thickness of 3.68mm or 3.77mm.

Jim, thank you for the measurement, as it helped me do some additional educated guessing. I'll call Artisan tomorrow to see if they might have some spacing rings of various thicknesses. There may even be a slight unintended thickness variation in replacement rings, if they have them in stock.

ed

Hey Esantro

My input is that you can use #24 needles on the 441 clones as long as you use a Feed Dog (bottom Feed) without using an extra Shim. The Adler Clones come complete with the required Shims. Also include the Timing device (I've never had to use it though). That is if you buy from Cowboy, Master or Neels as I'm not familiar with the rest.

In the 441 clones, Cowboy, Master & Neels come with a Toothed and a Smooth Feed Dog in the Package. I personally prefer the 441 as it is uncomplicated and does the same Stitch but has more scope. I've used #23 needles also and had no problems, except having to adjust the Tensions a little bit. Just wish I'd had the 441 Clone 40 years ago. I just measured the Spacer ring on my Master 441 and it is 3.52mm. that may be why these will take the finer needles so well.

I might add that the 105 (& 45K25) Clone is a better machine for decorative stitching and I use it for nice fine (#10 & 12 spi ) decorative Stitching on Harness (Patent Leather) The Borrom feed system has its drawbacks but is still my beloved second Machine.

I used to use Brown Paper or Gasket Paper for Shims in old worn, 45K25's, Oil doesn't affect it and I've removed paper shims 20 years old that were still working well. I've also seen Aluminium Foil used by Sewing Mach Mechanic and it seemed to work allright. What I'm getting at is the 45K was the Leather Machine of the last Century and so there were so many ways of making them sew better even when they were worn out. Now we're finding out how to make our 441's work better.

Love to see your comments on machines, shows you're inquisitive and that's the only way to learn.

Kindest Regards.

Jim.

[oldtimer]

Where are those spacers located and what´s their purpose?

[esantoro]

Where are those spacers located and what´s their purpose?

On the 441, this spacing ring will come out when you take out the shuttle-hook-race. This spacing ring will move the needle closer or farther from the hook. In my experience, best stitching performance on the 441 is had when the needle slightly grazes the hook. With my current setup, I get this slight grazing with 25 and 26 needles. I'd like to create the same grazing with 23 and 24 needles.

ed