Choosing durable dog collar thread... linen, Nylex etc...?

[KillDevilBill]

On 10/1/2025 at 6:40 AM, chuck123wapati said:

Ritza tiger thread is good stuff it works great on outdoor gear as well as indoor. Any thread will wear and fail if you don't set it into a groove; that's the key for dog collars and such especially.

Yeah, what he said.

I'll add my thoughts on the groove. If you're making padded collars, the stitching is no longer decorative, it's structural. You mentioned the inside will be protected by the lining, so I would absolutely groove the outside to protect those half of the stitches. I only do straight stitches (my brain shorts out when I see the ugly diagonal stitches. Just my opinion!) and a nice tight stitch in a groove looks classy and clean. If I'm building a hunting collar, absolutely groove even if it's decorative. I've had ZERO issues with Tiger thread. I've had dogs tear the leather but the stitches held up.

Good luck!

[Tove09Tilda]

13 hours ago, LakeOtter said:

 

I would like to thank everyone including the ones zeroing in on dog collars like Tove09Tilda and chuck123wapati!

I really didn't expect sewing to be such a rabbit hole. I'm used to tooling a novelty and either not sewing it or just getting by a bit.

I really want to get serious about using my tooling (stamping) in dog collars and, since I'll have the thick veg tan leather wet, when or if a groove seems prudent I will have that aforementioned chance to just compress a token groove to my liking and not necessarily have to gouge one with a groover.

I really appreciate the takes on when it's needed and not (or even counterproductive).

In fact, I started looking at French style pricking irons (which are hard to find in larger sizes... I finally found a 5.4mm spacing) but then it hit me -- goodness, that's a pretty wide groove needed to accommodate the slants! This adds another twisty turn to my stitching rabbit hole.  

Maybe I'd better stick to diamond style for now, whether pricking iron or a punchy stitching iron/chisel. I am serious about things I embark on, and I initially liked the idea of practicing and achieving success with pricking irons and an awl. I got an Osbourne awl haft and a 1.2mm diamond awl blade to go with it. I got 4mm pricking irons (Wuta) but for the 9oz leather I have (I already have a lot of Herman Oak 9oz and I know a lot of people with huge dogs) I started looking at larger pricking irons (for larger thread like .8 and 1.0mm thread) like 5.4mm spacing (which is some of the largest I could find at a doable price, Sinabroks). But I don't want to sink $180 (after shipping) on a pair of them in French style and wind up wishing they were diamond or straight. Actually Tove09Tilda mentioned using up to 1.0mm thread with 4mm pricking irons like I have... I'll have to experiment, since I thought that might be too chunky, hence the eye on 5.4mm pricking irons, be they French or not. Now I'm not even sure what style to get.

I'm all about experimenting and practicing but I like to buy the right items the first time (because I know I'm committed to what I begin, as I was making archery bows and decent woodwind instruments) but outfitting right the first time, with premium stuff, seems challenging with stitching, lol.

Again, thanks for the wonderful posts! Very useful.

P.S. Update -- I did just find some wider-spaced prong diamond irons that, while economy, had surprising reviews and will help me learn, because I was able to get several spacings in 3,4,5, and 6mm all for pretty cheap, to try, and get a handle on what I'll use the most. I figure I can either all the way punch thru or, even, use them like pricking irons with my awl, to start with, if I like, so long as I give them a tap enough to get past the point. Then, if I buy expensive ones, later, I'll know which I need. I just get scared because sometimes, "later", I don't have any money, lol.

First of all, thanks for the mention!
Even though I don’t do tooling myself and mainly focus on English-style leatherwork, I thought I’d share a few points that might be useful. I work almost exclusively with an adjustable creaser, a saddler’s compass (or “circle”), and pricking irons (French style) or overstitch wheels — the latter being very common and easier to get here in Germany.

One important thing to consider, especially when making gear for larger dogs, is: avoid diamond chisels.
There’s a great explanation by Nigel Armitage in the pricking iron review thread (I’ll link it when I find it). In short — pricking irons and overstitch wheels are marking tools, not punching tools. They’re used to show where your awl should enter the leather. You only pierce one hole at a time, which allows the leather to swell back around the thread, creating a stronger, cleaner, and more traditional stitch.

On 2/15/2020 at 1:39 PM, Dangerous Beans said:

Good morning folks,

I have been asked to share my thoughts on stitching and pricking irons and give a bit of input on types and styles out there
Much of what I will say is from experience and some is opinion, I will try to highlight when I add my opinion but it is fair to say, my way is not the only way.
Get as much information as you can from as many sources as you can.
Do not be frightened about asking folks offering advice to qualify that advice and then check it. There is a lot of misinformation out there.

The Pricking iron.
The traditional version of this tool if you will.
This is the tool I trained with, Joseph Dixon Irons and an awl and Haft from Hoopers in Walsall (long gone) and a wooden Mallet, how times change.
This is a tool designed to prick the surface of the leather marking a row of holes at set distances or SPI (Stitches Per Inch) for the worker to follow.
For many years these along with Pricking Wheels were the only tools used to mark the stitching on leather.
The idea was to only make a shallow hole (hence the work pricking) in the leather which acted as a locator for the awl, it was the awl that made the hole.
These irons tend to have flat ends to the teeth and the tooth then broadens out up towards the body, if driven into the leather to deeply, the hole becomes enlarged and distorted. If just used to prick, a fine slit is left. This is now where the awl comes into play.

Now, we have to know why this technique was used to fully appreciate the saddle stitch.
Just touching on the cobblers stitch for a moment, the cobblers stitch involved a similar way of marking the holes but traditionally, the wheel was the main way of doing so. A large awl was then employed to make a large hole, a hole big enough to allow both needles to pass through at the same time crossing in the hole.
This left a larger hole for the thread to sit in, I will come back to that shortly.

 

A Saddler, Bridle or Harness Maker looked to make a hole barely big enough to get one needle through.
The idea was to ensure that the thread did not ‘ride’ in the hole. 
If the hole was too big, the thread would ‘ride’ when the item was in use and if it did, one of two things would happen, the thread if weak, like linen, would fur and snap causing the seam to fail. If the thread was strong like polyester, it would saw at the leather cutting it and the seam would fail.
It was, therefore, important to lock each stitch into place to try and prevent this riding from occurring.
I am sure you can appreciate the dangers of a seam failing on a saddle or bridle when a horse is at full gallop and every seam is being stressed to the max.

 

So, the secret in this technique was not the iron, it was the awl.
The awl blade had a broad body and was tapered to a point, the point was sharp but the body was not.
This ensured that the area of leather actually cut could be kept to a minimum. The awl was pushed into the hole only as far as it needed to be to get the correct size hole.
Just the tip and you have a pinpoint hole, all the way to the haft and you had a much larger hole.
Because the body of the awl blade was blunt, or ‘soft’ the hole was stretched by the awl body, not cut, allowing the stitch to be placed, whereupon, almost immediately, the hole began to close up.
This is why only one hole at a time is made and the awl is employed on every stitch as you go. It is also important to match the correct thread and needles to the iron you are using.
This is how some saddlers managed stitching as fine as 18 spi on some pieces. 14 is not uncommon, 12 is a good benchmark.
So… keeping the hole as small as possible made for a stronger stitch locked into place and made it ideal for ‘working leather’. 
Looking back to the Cobblers Stitch with its larger hole, the stitch did not need to be locked into place as failure was less likely because less ride takes place in a pair of shoes.

 

Therefor ‘Traditional Saddle Stitch’ is not just a case of using pricking irons and an awl, it is so much more.
You need to know how to match the iron to the item, the thread to the SPI and the needles to the thread.
Then you need to be able to command the awl whilst wielding two needles, keeping the horizontal and transverse lines accurate, ensure the right angle of the blade is maintained and the depth to push the awl in is the same for each stitch.
All this without actually seeing the back of what you are stitching.
This technique takes months to lean and longer to master. Without doubt, the difficulty here lies in commanding the awl, not the iron.
Makes of the pricking ideal for this technique are Dixon, Blanchard, Amy Roke, Doldokki, Wuta and Abbey England.
Pricking Irons cannot be used as Stitching Irons unless they have very fine teeth or the leather is very thin.

The Stitching Iron.

This looks very similar to the pricking iron but the teeth are much slimmer and today, stronger.
They are designed to fully penetrate the leather sometimes up to 6mm.
The idea here is to remove the need for an awl and once the holes are made, the worker can go straight to the stitch.
Now, however slim the holes appear, they are still bigger than they need to be, in the wrong place, the ‘ride’ can still occur.
DO NOT USE the modern stitching irons on any form of Saddle, Harness, Bridle or Tack.

If you are inexperienced at making or repairing tack, you run the risk of putting someone in real danger. This equipment is designed to keep a grown adult on the back of a 1-tonne animal that is capable of travelling at 40mph. Don’t mess if you don’t know what you are doing.
However… the vast majority of people today are saddle stitching accessories and small goods. In this situation, the Stitching Iron comes into its own and a seam on a Wallet, Bag, Belt, Case or Box will never be tested as that on a saddle. 

I have been a professional leatherworker for 30 years and teaching these skills for the past 7.
I remember when these new irons appeared, my opinion was that they were tat and a gimmick. I was wrong. 
A great many people struggle with getting the saddle stitch right, especially using an awl.
I have seen many try and just give up.
However, with the irons available today, a fantastic stitch can be achieved even by a complete novice in a day.
Again, the secret was not in the iron, it was the awl, remove the awl and remove the frustration. 
Certainly, now we have a technique totally acceptable for small leather goods.

 

There are two types of stitching iron, the flat tooth and the diamond tooth. Some companies are calling the flat tooth version the ‘French Style’ and the Diamond the ‘Japanese Style’.
Do not be tempted to use the word ‘dent’ unless speaking French properly, it is just a French word for tooth and commonly referred to when talking about round tooth irons. 
The French have never made round tooth irons to my knowledge.

 

The Flat Tooth version irons leave a slit in the leather the width of the tooth and very narrow, for small leather goods, these give a very pleasing stitch and I use then for teaching here in the workshop with great success, I believe they have made good leather work more attainable for more people.
A few good makes of flat tooth Stitching iron are KS Blade Punch, Crimson Hides, Kevin Lee, Amy Roke and Sinabroks.

 

The Diamond tooth version of the Stitching irons also have their place, these leave an even bigger hole so are definitely to be avoided if working Tack.
The larger hole suits a larger thread, are much easier to stitch with and suit a thick or difficult leather.
Either way, they are still designed to fully penetrate the leather fully so fall under the title Stitching Iron.
These types of irons are available from Crimson Hides, Kevin Lee, Doldokki and KS Blade Punch.
Stitching irons can be used as pricking irons.
 

Stitching Chisels.
Whilst I have many of what are termed Stitching Chisels, I cannot be sure where the term was coined. They are in essence, a more basic version of Stitching Irons.
We know a chisel is a tool for woodwork so I think it may have been a crossover in translation. 

Still, they work the same way, they are designed to fully punch through the leather making a hole without the need of an awl so you are ready to stitch straight away.
The teeth tend to be long, straight and very thick and leave a large diamond hole.
The biggest issue with these tools is that the edges of the teeth tend to be quite sharp, so the hole you make is the hole to are left with, it will not close up well so not suited to more adept leather workers.
I have found them ideal for absolute beginners as the large hole they give makes it very easy to get the needles through and therefore stitch. 
People often get the balance wrong when stitching and have to resort to pliers, these definitely will avoid that.
Some common makes of Stitching Chisels are Tandy, Seiwa, Craft-Sha and Craft-Tool.

 

Leaving off the chisels for the time being, I would put the irons into two brackets, Traditional and Modern.
The Traditional is the stitch attained using a pricking iron and awl and the modern is that using the Stitching Iron and no awl.
There will always be a place for an awl so practice is encouraged, even with the modern style.

 

Thank you to Northmounts for placing a link to my iron review in his post, here it is again: Armitage Leather Iron Review
This is designed to complement the iron reviews on my YouTube Channel, Armitage Leather. So far there are about 20 and more will be added in time.

 

I shan’t add the reviews here, you have access to the info sheet and the videos. But opinions are valuable, add yours.
Unless of course you include stitch grooving or drilling holes. Then you will be sat in a corner.

 

I will leave you to discuss, dissect and question. Always question.
If you struggle with your stitching, I cover both styles, left and right-handed on my Vimeo Channel and run courses here in the workshop.
All the details are on my website.

 

I hope it helps.

 

Warm regards to you all

 

Nigel

Also, about needles — don’t go for the cheapest ones. With 9 oz leather (around 3.5 mm, right?), you’ll occasionally need pliers to pull them through. My long-time recommendation: harness needles. They’re reliable and made for heavy work. And don’t forget beeswax! Even if your thread is pre-waxed, re-waxing from time to time helps a lot. Beeswax has been one of my must-haves ever since I started leatherwork at 14.

If you want flat stitches, tap them gently with a soft mallet or use a thread roller — one of my favorite tools lately.

Personally, I’d say 5.4 mm spacing is quite large. My old 4 mm irons already produce a fairly wide stitch pattern, which can look unfinished depending on the project. Outfitting your workshop is definitely challenging in the beginning — I’m not exactly looking forward to how my toolbox will expand once I start my apprenticeship! You really do need some disposable income for this craft, but don’t be fooled — you can skip a few “nice to have” tools in the beginning.

Also invest into a good awl and figure out which one works best for you and also try different handle sizes. I have very nice (good quality! No breakage in over 10 years) Osborn ones, which make my life actually harder, as I have small hands with long slander fingers, but still not enough space for the handle, when stitching. I'm planning to buy at last one smaller flatter one pretty soon, so that my stitching becomes faster and my master (whoever that will be) has one thing less to complain about. I personally switch between diamond, sword and round awl almost all the time, with diamond being my favourite and already 4 destroyed blachard sword awls (ups … shall not be, I think!). I started off with a round awl and added the others over time. Remember, awls - just like your knives - need regular sharpening to stay efficient.

You might want to try overstitch wheels first before investing in more pricking irons. They’re much cheaper, come in a variety of sizes, and help you figure out what stitch length fits your projects best. It takes some practice, but if you’re grooving, they’re actually very easy to keep straight since they can’t roll off line easily.

Have fun — and yes, stitching, thread, saddle stitch, and everything connected to it really is a rabbit hole! Here in Germany, it’s even part of the exam when you become a certified saddler.

Best, 
Tove 

[LakeOtter]

On 10/12/2025 at 3:09 PM, Tove09Tilda said:

 

First of all, thanks for the mention!
Even though I don’t do tooling myself and mainly focus on English-style leatherwork, I thought I’d share a few points that might be useful. I work almost exclusively with an adjustable creaser, a saddler’s compass (or “circle”), and pricking irons (French style) or overstitch wheels — the latter being very common and easier to get here in Germany.

One important thing to consider, especially when making gear for larger dogs, is: avoid diamond chisels.
There’s a great explanation by Nigel Armitage in the pricking iron review thread (I’ll link it when I find it). In short — pricking irons and overstitch wheels are marking tools, not punching tools. They’re used to show where your awl should enter the leather. You only pierce one hole at a time, which allows the leather to swell back around the thread, creating a stronger, cleaner, and more traditional stitch.

Also, about needles — don’t go for the cheapest ones. With 9 oz leather (around 3.5 mm, right?), you’ll occasionally need pliers to pull them through. My long-time recommendation: harness needles. They’re reliable and made for heavy work. And don’t forget beeswax! Even if your thread is pre-waxed, re-waxing from time to time helps a lot. Beeswax has been one of my must-haves ever since I started leatherwork at 14.

If you want flat stitches, tap them gently with a soft mallet or use a thread roller — one of my favorite tools lately.

Personally, I’d say 5.4 mm spacing is quite large. My old 4 mm irons already produce a fairly wide stitch pattern, which can look unfinished depending on the project. Outfitting your workshop is definitely challenging in the beginning — I’m not exactly looking forward to how my toolbox will expand once I start my apprenticeship! You really do need some disposable income for this craft, but don’t be fooled — you can skip a few “nice to have” tools in the beginning.

Also invest into a good awl and figure out which one works best for you and also try different handle sizes. I have very nice (good quality! No breakage in over 10 years) Osborn ones, which make my life actually harder, as I have small hands with long slander fingers, but still not enough space for the handle, when stitching. I'm planning to buy at last one smaller flatter one pretty soon, so that my stitching becomes faster and my master (whoever that will be) has one thing less to complain about. I personally switch between diamond, sword and round awl almost all the time, with diamond being my favourite and already 4 destroyed blachard sword awls (ups … shall not be, I think!). I started off with a round awl and added the others over time. Remember, awls - just like your knives - need regular sharpening to stay efficient.

You might want to try overstitch wheels first before investing in more pricking irons. They’re much cheaper, come in a variety of sizes, and help you figure out what stitch length fits your projects best. It takes some practice, but if you’re grooving, they’re actually very easy to keep straight since they can’t roll off line easily.

Have fun — and yes, stitching, thread, saddle stitch, and everything connected to it really is a rabbit hole! Here in Germany, it’s even part of the exam when you become a certified saddler.

Best, 
Tove 

Thanks again not only for this but for everyone's comments including KillDevilBill above and everyone...

Cool re: Tove... I have an overstitch wheel I can identify the sizes of and use but, at least, instead of hammering the cheap chisels thru tonight, I'm using the size array of diamond chisels like a crummy pricking iron, at least this week. The points are short, and I can pierce the 9oz leather a small fraction of the way and still get a slant to match up my CS Osbourne diamond awl angle, which was pleasing. I won't be using them long, I'm sure.

That's great stuff about using different awl blades sometimes... I am currently using a CS Osbourne saddler's harness awl, but noticed they make a "stitching awl" blade (not the Speedy Stitch tool thing, these have no hole and say use with the same, regular Osbourne hafts) that looks like the same blade up front as the saddler harness awl blade, but the rear half is just cylindrical like they didn't forge that half into a diamond... an elongated Roman spear shape. I'm sure I'll discover the benefits of all the types including what you mentioned!

Oh KillDevilBill mentioned not liking very slanted stitches... I am noticing my diamond awl, at the angle I'm using, provides enough slant for me. I like that much and I like the way the diamond awl operates easily. I guess I'd need to punch (or awl?) circular holes to have straighter stitches, but I'm liking these.

I'm now wondering what the end difference is using French pricking irons or diamond pricking irons (also real ones not chisels), when using the same awl to pierce the leather, anyhow.... is the marked angle actually different? I can see each mark is wider with some French, but I can't tell from pictures if the actual angle is steeper than the non-French pricking irons. In any case I'll probably wind up with diamond pricking irons as long as they're not actually pointed chisels...?      

I'm thankful to discover people willing to share such valuable stuff, as every single reply has been. I've been in circles where that was hard to find. 

 

 

Edited Friday at 03:41 AM by LakeOtter
clarify and typo

[LakeOtter]

Ugh... I like this Osbourne haft and awl blade but it seems the Saddler’s harness awl blade is listed as "1.2mm" and the holes are a bit small to have to yank thru the needle with 1.0mm thread (fairly flat thread, even). I'm using a John James saddlers harness needle, "18" size or 1/0 (single 0) which seems fine but the locked thread just past the eye is what's a bit fat for the awl holes. 

The awl blade is listed where I bought it as "1.2mm" ...it measures more like 2.7mm at its widest point of the diamond blade and, yes, 1.2mm thick the other dimension (length doesn't matter here).

SO many sellers of Osbourne saddler's harness awl blades just list the length of the blade and not the thickness or width. They say things like "#45" and "2 1/4 in. long" but so far just the one sell lists the thickness which is obviously very important here, and I can't find a master C.S. Osbourne list of numbers that specifies their widths.

So I guess I'll order from my same seller (not that they have all the choices others have, by number) and get the shortest 1.5mm and the shortest 2.0mm wide saddler's harness awl blades and eventually use them all. Not sure which I'll need for the 1.0mm Riza thread... the 1.5mm or the 2.0mm-wide saddler's harness awl blades until I try, lol...

Thanks again for all the great experienced input

Edited Friday at 06:02 AM by LakeOtter

[chuck123wapati]

5 hours ago, LakeOtter said:

Ugh... I like this Osbourne haft and awl blade but it seems the Saddler’s harness awl blade is listed as "1.2mm" and the holes are a bit small to have to yank thru the needle with 1.0mm thread (fairly flat thread, even). I'm using a John James saddlers harness needle, "18" size or 1/0 (single 0) which seems fine but the locked thread just past the eye is what's a bit fat for the awl holes. 

The awl blade is listed where I bought it as "1.2mm" ...it measures more like 2.7mm at its widest point of the diamond blade and, yes, 1.2mm thick the other dimension (length doesn't matter here).

SO many sellers of Osbourne saddler's harness awl blades just list the length of the blade and not the thickness or width. They say things like "#45" and "2 1/4 in. long" but so far just the one sell lists the thickness which is obviously very important here, and I can't find a master C.S. Osbourne list of numbers that specifies their widths.

So I guess I'll order from my same seller (not that they have all the choices others have, by number) and get the shortest 1.5mm and the shortest 2.0mm wide saddler's harness awl blades and eventually use them all. Not sure which I'll need for the 1.0mm Riza thread... the 1.5mm or the 2.0mm-wide saddler's harness awl blades until I try, lol...

Thanks again for all the great experienced input

when sewing stick your needle about halfway through the hole and wiggle it up, down, and sideways to stretch the hole a bit it will close back up and you can get your thread through easier. The secret to hand stitching made easy.

[fredk]

  Thats wot I do

[LakeOtter]

Chuck123wapati and FredK -- re: wiggling awl : Thanks for confirming this so I can practice exactly that, a bit more, as it worked but left too much traces my first time wiggling. I thought I saw J.H. do this, but when I tried it on some thick veg tan leather, either I didn't use enough finesse or the leather is bad or a bit of both. Or I need to sharpen my new Osbourne saddle harness awl, or all of it, lol. It left wee, raised divots or artifacts from wiggling that I could still see after stitching.

I intend to improve tooling pictoral designs, so I'm using bare veg tan (dry for stitching). I have some Herman Oak butt but I experiment with cheaper stuff I bought earlier, and save the HO for real projects. Some came from Italy, but last night's was a quick purchase of some 8oz or so from Hobby Lobby, and so it's possibly the worst of the 3. It was as bone dry as a FL air conditioned cabin allows. Maybe the HO would do the same thing, though, since it takes good impressions (good and intended or not). Probably not the leather's fault...

Practice practice, I'm sure will just be key, so thanks for confirming wiggling is normal... I did notice doing so, on top of the unexpected free JJ saddlers harness needles that came with the Riza thread, allowed the work with the existing awl, which was nice. The needles worked fine and were one size smaller than I had, so that helped and was serendipitous when I opened my first Riza thread 😊

Sounds like just practice is needed and things are looking good. 

Edited Saturday at 01:17 AM by LakeOtter
added

[fredk]

When I do the wiggle - with the needle, not me personally! I sort-of do it in circular motion. After sewing tap down the sewing line. Use a light weight mallet, with a plastic or rubber head. Not too hard, you don't want to mark the leather,  just light taps

Keep your awl really sharp. How sharp? So sharp that when it goes into your finger the first you know it has is the blood!