Cylinder head machine for heavyweight canvas, leather and odd materials

[keenbean]

Hello all,

I'm an upcycling artist based in Minnesota. I make various bags and clothing. I love working with heavy fabrics and I'm finally running up against the limits of my trusty Juki TL Haruka. Case in point, I tried making a canvas bag with some #8 (18 oz) canvas this past weekend and, while it did great up to around 8 layers, it really struggled past that which is understandable since the design I used involved some areas with upwards of 12 layers (20 on the side seams!). And that's without things like flat felled side seams.

As my main focus is bags, I am looking for a cylinder head, triple feed machine. I am looking to sew heavyweight canvas (up to 30 oz preferably!), 4-8 oz leather, heavier vinyl, as well as upcycling some odd materials such as carpet samples, bath rugs, jellyroll rugs, vinyl banners, etc. I began looking at the Juki 1341 and it's associated clones and after LOTS of research, I narrowed my preliminary selection to the Thor GC1341, the Cobra Class 26 and the Cowboy 6900. 

After making the previous tote I realized that a bag with heavyweight canvas and leather will have some very thick and dense sections so punching power is obviously a concern. Beyond that, I'd prefer a decent presser foot clearance (15mm+), relatively low maintenance (the reason why I'm a bit hesitant on the cobra, as it appears to require significantly more involved manual oiling), a servo motor with EPS and speed reduction (I'd be willing to buy and swap in a kinedyne 750 motor if need be), easily sourced accessories including a double fold binder and a "space saver" table although I'm confident in mounting the machine to a third party or home-built table if need be. Some nice-to-haves would be easily adjustable presser foot height, dual thread tensioners and a foot operated presser foot lift (I'm tall with long legs so knee lifts can be a big awkward for me). It would also be a plus to have the ability to use ~18 size needles so I can use the cylinder to get to hard to reach areas on less heavy articles without shredding them but I understand that that isn't what this machine is for. I'm not super familiar with industrial thread yet but it seems like all the options I looked at can use thread which would be fine for my uses.

So given all that, my main questions are:
Are the class of machines I'm looking at capable of sewing what I need? Are there other better options I'm overlooking? Do I need to look at 441-level machines or similar to sew with the mentioned weights of canvas and leather reliably?

I should also mention that I am pursuing a mechanical engineering degree and am mechanically inclined, so I would be comfortable servicing and modifying parts/machines. I also have access to a fairly well-equipped machining shop at my university. Let me know if any more information is needed and thank you for your time! This forum is a wonderful resource.

[Wizcrafts]

@keenbean

First, take a look at this thread and needle chart. It shows the diameters of various sizes of thread and needles and tells you which needle to use with a particular thread size. You really need to define a range of thread sizes, then find machines that can use the range of needles that are best matched to the thread. But, keep in mind that lockstitch machines for overlapping knots that must be pulled up inside the material without seeing them on the top or bottom. The thicker the thread, the harder it may be to conceal those knots.

Different classes of sewing machines are able to handle different ranges of needles and thread. Most upholstery grade machines are meant to handle a range of thread from #69 through #138, with a corresponding needle range of #18 through #23. Extra heavy duty machines may extend the thread range to #207, which calls for a #24 needle.

From your description of the range of materials and thicknesses involved, you will be on the borderline of heavy duty and super heavy duty. The Juki 1341 and its clones may or may not live up to your expectations. You want a 5/8" clearance under the foot (15mm). The only way you can get that amount of lift on a walking foot machines is if it is built to lift at least that high without the tip of the needle sticking out of the inside foot. The 1341 and its clones are probably not built with that extreme amount if foot and needle lift in mind. Ironically, the Juki LU-1508NH flatbed machine is built to lift that high, including the tip of the needle. It accomplishes this by using a longer needle system with a longer stroke. The 1341 and clones are made to use system 135x16 and 17 needles, with are standard length for upholstery grade machines. At their maximum rated lift, the needle bar just barely clears the lifted feet and the needle's tip is just inside the bottom of the inside foot. You'd have to ask a dealer, or somebody who has tried it to know if these machines can accept the longer system 190 needles that would be needed for a higher than standard foot lift.

While the upholstery grade machines run out of lift around 1/2 inch, and are limited to a maximum thread size of #138, the 441 class machines are happy with thicknesses up to at least 3/4", with some able to sew 7/8 inch. However, these machines are built for super heavy duty sewing with large thread sizes and correspondingly large needles. As such, it is difficult to find any leather point needles under a #23, and even harder to find round points under size 22. These needles are perfect for #138 thread, top and bottom, but are way too big for thinner thread. Further, these machines have very large oval holes in the feed dog to clear needles up to a #26 or 27. Thin material can get pushed down inside the hole. To solve that problem, at least two people are producing narrow feed dogs and throat plates for the 441 class machines.

So, you'll have to choose between modding a lesser machine to use a longer needle, then figure out how to increase the foot lift, or dumb down a more powerful machines to use thinner needles (if you can find any) with thinner thread.

 

[kgg]

 

@keenbean

Just to tag in on @Wizcrafts comments:

The Juki TL Haruka uses HAx1 needles with a shank diameter of 1.63mm and uses up to max #18 needle which means the max thread size is V69 (metric 40). Typically the largest thread size for a domestic machine. The machine weight is about 25 lb.

The Juki LS-1341 is a cylinder arm uses 135x17 and 135 x16 (leather) needles with a shank diameter of 2mm and uses up to max #24 needle which means the max thread size is V138 (metric 20). The head weight alone is about 82 lbs.

The Juki LU-1508NH is a flatbed uses MTx190 needles with a shank diameter of 2mm and uses up to max #25 needle which means the max thread size is V207 (metric 15). The head weight alone is about 93 lbs.

The Juki TU-1508NH is a cylinder arm that would be the equivalent to the flatbed Juki LU-1508NH. The head weight alone is about 97 lbs.

The Class 441 machines like the Juki TSC-441 cylinder arm uses 794 needles with a shank diameter of 2.5mm and uses up to max #28 needle which means the max thread size is V415 (metric 7). Think of a needles with similar shank diameter as a 2.5" finishing nail, big hole. The head weight alone is about 123 lbs.

kgg

[keenbean]

@Wizcrafts

I should have been more clear but I only meant the presser foot lift being 15mm, not the actual thickness the machine can sew. When upcycling it's helpful to have more room to move things around under the foot. All the machines I mentioned have a listed clearance of 15-16mm. They also claim to handle #207 (Tex 210) thread.

That's a great thread and needle chart, thank you. referencing that and some videos, I believe #138 would be plenty for my applications and the apparent option for #207 eases my doubts there. And the low end at size #69 is perfectly fine too. The 441 class threads and needles would definitely be a commitment though.

My being on the border of heavy and super heavy duty is exactly what I was afraid of. Great point about the throat plate as well, I didn't think about that. I do not have the budget for two machines right now, maybe in a couple years, though that seems like the best eventual solution. I suppose a 1341 class machine will at least allow me to handle some heavier stuff now while the super heavy stuff waits for the future.

[WoVo]

Any Adler 205-370 or it's clones will do the job if set up properly (needle hole in feet dog, hook clearance) but be aware that this class of sewing machine is not on a budget and requires regular maintenance.

[kgg]

5 hours ago, keenbean said:

and the apparent option for #207 eases my doubts there.

Be careful. Juki rates their machines on what it can sew at max thickness not what you can stuff through the eye of the needle. Example: Juki LS-1341 rated for a #24 (180) needle which can accept V207 however the spec for max thread size is V138. Some clones would spec it as being able to sew V207.

kgg

[AlZilla]

@keenbean, this sounds like a classic case of "no one machine can do it all" and at least you recognize that fact. You're talking about buying a machine that'll be working right at the upper end of it's capability. No room for growth, no room for one more layer. And given the fact that you're apparently working with found materials, who knows what you might run into?

You need 2 machines. One in the range you're talking about and one in the 441 clone range. At least that's what it looks like from here.

You'll probably need a bigger shop to put it all in, too.

Hey, it's easy spending someone else's money ... 💸💸

[Wizcrafts]

@keenbean

To add to my previous comments, even if you are able to source thinner needles in system 7x3 - for a Juki 441 class machine - know that they are very long and easily deflected. With a lot of layers taped, glued, or stapled together there's a good likelihood that some deflection will occur. You can reduce the deflection by limiting the smallest needle to a size 20. This will poke a slightly wider than usual hole for #92 bonded thread, but it's still much smaller than a #23 needle. Since the 7x3 is a round point, the ends will still be on the surface, as opposed to leather point system 794 S point that submerges the ends.

If you can live with a thread range of #92 through 207, a Cowboy CB3200 will handle everything you can throw at it. It sews 1/2 inch, but the feet lift 5/8 inch. I have seen folders on the Cowboy/Hightex website, which would be a special order. You can ask Bob Kovar, the owner of Toledo Industrial Sewing Machines, about folders and other attachments for that model. If anybody could fit one onto that machine, it's Bob. 

 

Addendum: I wrote a blog article about dumbing down a Cowboy CB4500 or similar class 441 machine for use with thin needles and thread. You might find it useful if you want to consider a CB3200, 4500, or similar machine.

Note, most of the machines you're looking at are manually oiled. It's no big deal. It's a routine you develop.

Edited Monday at 04:59 PM by Wizcrafts
Added information about dumbing down a heavy duty machine.

[keenbean]

@wizcrafts

Thank you for the article! I would definitely be concerned about needle deflection and I don't think I'd be up for going through that adjustment process very frequently. I'm also not too keen on trying to source hard to find needles as well! 

I'm more convinced it's a case of two machines. Thinking about it more, I believe my best bet is to get a 1341 class machine now as I think it would fill a larger number of needs, while saving the super heavy stuff for an eventual 441 class machine.

 

Side note, I'm assuming Toledo doesn't carry the 6900 as is not on their site. Maybe I'll call and see what Bob says.

On 2/9/2026 at 5:19 AM, kgg said:

Be careful. Juki rates their machines on what it can sew at max thickness not what you can stuff through the eye of the needle. Example: Juki LS-1341 rated for a #24 (180) needle which can accept V207 however the spec for max thread size is V138. Some clones would spec it as being able to sew V207.

kgg

That's a good point. I've seen some other posters say they've done it with 207 in the top but not the bobbin but I think 138 is a safer bet.

[kgg]

9 minutes ago, keenbean said:

Side note, I'm assuming Toledo doesn't carry the 6900 as is not on their site. Maybe I'll call and see what Bob says.

The Cowboy labelled CB6900 is the down-under (Australian) version of the North America CB341 where both are clones of the Juki LS-341. Another option for those occasional needs would be a manual class 441 machine. There are three capable "one armed bandits", Tippmann Boss, Cowboy Outlaw and Weaver's Master Tool Cub.  

kgg