A thread thread

[howardb]

I need a translator: from ancient leatherese into modern english!

Thread Buying thread:

I have seen every possible description for thread in many different posts and online catalogs. What I need is to know how to equate between the varying size references. I'm guessing that size DOES matter...

"3 cord" is WHAT exactly? The link to Maine Thread provided some clues, but still questions remain. They have a chart at the bottom that shows 6 cord through 11 cord. 6 cord is shown as .035", 8 cord is .045", and 11 cord is shown as .055". They have waxed thread starting at .020" through .055" without the "x-cord" identifier. They also show an artificial sinew with NO size reference! How's a newbie supposed to figure this all out?

Stohlman's book says to use "Buhlers 6 cord" to stitch holsters. I would assume you could use the mysterious 3 or 4 cord to stitch smaller things?

I have a spool of very heavy looking black waxed cord (ultra waxed I might add from Mexico) that measures at about .035" to .040". No clue as to sizing. there's a '3' stamped on the label and '.250'. No other markings

I have some natural colored stuff that I inherited that measures out about .025". The label inside the core says "Blue Mountain Industrial" and "waxed polyester twine". 9/15/80 and 4 ply. 900 308 966 also adorn the label. Yes it occurs to me that the 9/15/80 could be a mfg date, but I've seen strange size nomenclature on thread before so I assume nothing.

I e-mailed Maine Thread for the size chart they advertise. Not sure what I'll get, but I'll share when it arrives.

Brent

[anne newkold]

maybe this link will help explain some of it.

http://www.artisansew.com/thread.html

look to the chart at the bottom of the page.

Anne

[ElNino]

Hi Brent,

I have been struggling with this one as well. Anne thanks for the link that cleared up the sizing for me. Al's book also talks abouty using linen thread too but I am also hearing about nylon and polyetster blends. One spool thread will mpre than likely last me a lifetime so I wondering which thread is the best choice and what makes it better, I have heard that linen thread will rot so I am really condused on which way to go. My other question is will waxed thread take the dye color?

Cheers,

Chris

[bcurrier]

Linen can rot (as can cotton), but you can also find linen-sewn items hundreds of years old, too. Nylon can "rot" from sun exposure. Both nylon and poly stretch more than natural threads. Etc. etc. All thread types have their own characteristics, so it's a matter of picking the best thread for the usage.

Bill

[ElNino]

I am looking for a good all purpose thread I am leaning towards unwaxed linen, I do expect to be making pieces that will be exposed to the elements and seeing as I live on the coast I should include saltwater. I expect to need 2 or 3 different sizes. I still haven't managed to find any local suppliers so I will still need to have my orders shipped which means it makes more sense to order a few rolls at once. BTW I just received my book order shipped USPS no duties or brokerage fees unlike UPS. Anybody in the UK have any suggestions?

Chris

[whinewine]

Al's book also talks abouty using linen thread too but I am also hearing about nylon and polyetster blends. One spool thread will last me a lifetime so I wondering which thread is the best choice and what makes it better, I have heard that linen thread will rot so I am really condused on which way to go.

I am not saying that one type is better than others, but what is the original copyright of Al's book? In all probability, Al only had 2 serious choices at that time: linen or cotton. Cotton has major flaws for handsewing, I believe, & linen was, therefore, the obvious choice at the time. Now there are many different choices: linen, poly, nylon & kevlar (& possibly others I haven't thought of). Who knows, if Al were to have written the book today, he might have recommended kevlar... ???

[Art]

Hi Chris,

Linen thread will rot, however I have seen many holsters that are falling apart with dry rot and other sundry deteriorations but the linen thread is still going strong in both machine stitched and hand stitched versions. Waxing linen will give it extra durability in addition to allowing the stitches to stick to each other for a tighter stitch. You can buy linen that is already waxed, but it is a simple task to hand wax with beeswax when preparing to stitch. For machines, liquid paraffin based wax works good also, don't run prewaxed linen in a machine. Linen takes dye readily, however after waxing not as well.

Nylon and polyester will deteriorate with excessive exposure to direct sunlight, however here again, the leather will probably not outlast it. Outdoor gear and sails and awnings are stitched with nylon and polyester. I stitched a sacrificial strip to my roller Genoa and the strip (Sunbrella type) gave up the ghost after about 8 years of daily exposure, and I peeled it off easily, but I had to rip every last nylon stitch out with a seam ripper (I'll just sew over them next time!). This thread (#92 Bonded Nylon, can't remember the manufacturer but a major one) was from 1980 and I'm sure they have made some advances over the almost 30 years to improve longevity.

I have found that thread takes more of a beating, and has more failures from mechanical wear than environmental. Protect any stitching as best you can, but not at unreasonable expense to strength. If you are going to expose it to sever wet outdoor use, then nylon or poly is your best bet, but like I said, there is a whole lot of linen around still holding some very deteriorated leather together.

Art

Hi Brent,

I have been struggling with this one as well. Anne thanks for the link that cleared up the sizing for me. Al's book also talks abouty using linen thread too but I am also hearing about nylon and polyetster blends. One spool thread will mpre than likely last me a lifetime so I wondering which thread is the best choice and what makes it better, I have heard that linen thread will rot so I am really condused on which way to go. My other question is will waxed thread take the dye color?

Cheers,

Chris

[ElNino]

Art,

Thank you it does seem that at least for my first few pieces I will be using linen thread. As far as dying the thread I am guessing that I should dye it before I wax it, my next question is how do you size the needles to the thread? I plan on using Barbour Linen thread. Also I have heard people saying that the egg eye needles are not the best choice but that is all that I have been able to find in Harness needles.

Cheers,

Chris

[Art]

Hi Chris,

I am not the authority here on hand stitching. There are others here who have forgotten more about it than I know. However, I do some and use harness needles from CSO. I have started using (this will sound crazy) a crochet hook to harness stitch. I just make sure the barb on the hook is smooth and even turned in a bit. I sew mostly by machine and occasionally finish stitching by hand. I use the needles with the smaller eye in them. I would wax a piece of thread and then dye it to see how it goes. Most thread only gets what dye it picks up from the rest of the piece if it is dyed.

Art

Art,

Thank you it does seem that at least for my first few pieces I will be using linen thread. As far as dying the thread I am guessing that I should dye it before I wax it, my next question is how do you size the needles to the thread? I plan on using Barbour Linen thread. Also I have heard people saying that the egg eye needles are not the best choice but that is all that I have been able to find in Harness needles.

Cheers,

Chris

[Leather Bum]

Speaking of thread types, what exactly does the term "bonded nylon" or "bonded polyester" mean?

L'Bum

[jimsaddler]

Can I add my little bit to this thread please, as one of those who has more than a few years of Hand sewing under my Belt.

Firstly there is only one needle for Hand sewing medium to heavy Leather, thats the Egg Eyed Harness Needle. As small as you can draw through the Awl hole!

Thread;

Linen will outlast Synthetic if used properly.

I repaired Traces that had been sewn in 1927, some years ago and the Linen was probably as good as when it was sewn in by my Great Grandfather. It took a lot of effort to remove it so that I could do a splice to join a new tip in. Also I repaired Harness made in the early 1800's and the Linen was still holding up well. As well as this I have Harness and Saddles made in the early 60's that are still going strong.

By the same token I replaced Poly Bond thread ( very reputable Brand name) I used in Harness 12 years before and it was rotten.

I do recall being told by Thread manufacturers in the 70's & 80's that the problem with Synthetics was the half life was 7 years, so don't use it for Products that are meant to last longer. They were right, as I've seen more Synthetics break down than Linen. Add a bit of Beeswax and Resin and you can be sure of Linen outlasting Synthetics.

Lately I've been using a Braided waxed Polyester that seems to be allright but now I'll have to wait another 20 years to see if it will stand up the Job. I add a good rub of Beeswax & Resin when I use it for Handsewing. But I haven't found a real good Braid for Machine sewing yet.

So now see if you can convince me my view is not right?

Kindest Regards.

Jim.

[Art]

Bonded means in short, that there is a resin applied to the thread to keep it "bonded" together. Non-bonded (soft) thread unravels easily and gets all fuzzy when run through a machine.

Art

Speaking of thread types, what exactly does the term "bonded nylon" or "bonded polyester" mean?

L'Bum

[Leather Bum]

Thanks for explaining that, Art.

Thread;

Linen will outlast Synthetic if used properly. . . Add a bit of Beeswax and Resin and you can be sure of Linen outlasting Synthetics.

What is the proper way to use linen to make it last longer than nylon or polyester? And what exactly is the "resin" that you apply to the thread?

L'Bum

[Hilly]

Thanks for explaining that, Art.

What is the proper way to use linen to make it last longer than nylon or polyester? And what exactly is the "resin" that you apply to the thread?

L'Bum

I'm wondering the same thing.

Jim?

[jimsaddler]

"What is the proper way to use linen to make it last longer than nylon or polyester? And what exactly is the "resin" that you apply to the thread?"

Well I guess that the simplest way to answer this is as follows.

I was taught before the Synthetics came on the scene, so each morning the first job was to make your threads for the Day. Depending on the work that day it might be say 3 hours Hand sewing. Three threads per hour equals 9 threads thats 9 minutes work to roll them. Well there was a pride thing involved with my Bench Mate Reg and I so we made up our Normal Saddle Sewing Wax as follows ;

Beeswax (unrefined) about a pound, Resin (Rosin, Pine resin, Dusting Rosin for Chaps and Gloves) depending on the seasons Temperature from a lump the size of a wallnut in summer to an Egg in winter (crushed very fine), 1 teaspoon of either Linseed or Castor Oil.

Use a Hot Glue Pot or an old Saucepan sitting in a bigger Pot of Boiling Water, to melt the Wax and Resin together. When the wax and Resin are well melted, stir them to combine then add the Oil. You should Have a large Tub of cold Water handy. Pour some ( aprox 1/3rd) of the mixture into the tub in one spot, carefully pull the wax out of the water remembering that the center is still very hot but the outside is cool and crusted to-gether.

Knead the water out of the Wax carefully, then work the Wax by pulling it into a sausage then doubling it and repeating the process until it is pliable.

Break off lumps that will fit comfortably in your hand when rubbing it on the Thread. Some like it the size of Pigeon Eggs, some the size of Eggs. I like it in the middle.

This wax will melt into the Thread when you rub it vigorously onto the Thread when you use off the Spool for Hand Sewing. I'll go into making Waxed Ends at a later time as they are the longest lasting of all.

Right, when you sew make sure that you keep your Hands clean.

Please have a Happy Day.

Jim.

[TroyWest]

Jimsaddler, I always enjoy reading what you have to say.

Troy West

[jimsaddler]

Many thanks Troy,

I appreciate the comments. I've got nearly 50 years of Saddlers and Harness tips that are there for the asking as I can't take them with me.

Kindest regards.

Jim.

[Oscar B]

http://www.sailrite.com/Which-Thread-or-Ne...34Pa38Ta38Pbxn0

[Aart]

Trust Jimsaddler, same recipe here in Europe. Beeswax, Resin and Linseed oil. Just this... I'm in Southern France so there is no need for a winter and summer version.

I'm just an amateur (and have been for over 40 years using my own hand material on my own bred horses) But these threads do last. Mistral sun and sweat.

Et un coup de chapeau for Jim.

Best regards

Aart.

[stanly]

this has all been helpful.....so, what about Rice where they have a letter size:

Rice Polyamide Silamide Thread Spools Size - F / 140 yards:

$4.50

Rice / N.B.T. Brand Silamide Waxed Thread Skeins Size - A / 675 yards:

$6.50

I'm guessing this is a thinner thread?

[Oscar B]

this has all been helpful.....so, what about Rice where they have a letter size:

Rice Polyamide Silamide Thread Spools Size - F / 140 yards:

$4.50

Rice / N.B.T. Brand Silamide Waxed Thread Skeins Size - A / 675 yards:

$6.50

I'm guessing this is a thinner thread?

http://www.a1sewingmachine.com/rice.html

This may help show the sizes to letter.