Warped tree

[oldtimer]

I have had a saddle tree hanging on the wall in my shop for a couple of years. It was square when I got it but, when checking today I found out that somehow it has warped. When I put it on the bench one of the corners is about 3/8" above the bench surface. A couple of questions : How much warpage can be tolerated ? Is there a way to correct it? What would you do?

Another interesting question is :Would the tree have warped if I had built a saddle when the tree was new ? and how many horses have saddles on their backs with warped trees?

[bruce johnson]

Three-eighths would be too much for me to spend the time to cover it. I'd check some other measurements like diagonals to see how far out it is in other aspects. I haven't jumped on one or torqued one to square it up so can't help you there.

One guy I have talked with would not build on a rawhided tree until it sat for 6 months in his shop to cure. I don't know how other guys handle it, they ususally sit around a while for me too but not for a set reason. I am sure there are trees that warp over time, we've probably all seen that.

I think Rod mentioned this in one of his replies a while back, but I have seen it also. I took a tree to a swap deal and it sat on the bedliner of my truck in the summer for a few hours. It was dead on level at my house. After it heated up it had about a scant 3/16" rock. I put it in the guy's shop and within an hour it was level again. Heat will affect one.

[jonwatsabaugh]

I would agree with Bruce that this tree would be unusable. I think that anything over 3/32" will throw the angles front and rear out of alignment to much. Two things I do to keep everything as stable as possible is to laminate all parts, including the bars, and to encase the structure in epoxy resin with at least one layer of fiberglass cloth on the top of the tree before it is rawhided. To my knowledge I'm the only maker laminating bars, and yup it takes much more time, but I believe it is well worth it.

Jon

[greg gomersall]

Jon; Ben Swanke laminates his bars as well. greg

I would agree with Bruce that this tree would be unusable. I think that anything over 3/32" will throw the angles front and rear out of alignment to much. Two things I do to keep everything as stable as possible is to laminate all parts, including the bars, and to encase the structure in epoxy resin with at least one layer of fiberglass cloth on the top of the tree before it is rawhided. To my knowledge I'm the only maker laminating bars, and yup it takes much more time, but I believe it is well worth it.

Jon

[AndyKnight]

I also laminate my bars to give them more stability. Just cut out 4 pair today

I also figure any more than 1/8 of rock is too much. that being said with trees that are not made to stringent precise standards ,they may or maynot be square even when they sit square.. That is maybe a little confusing but I have certainly found it to be the case.back when I used factory made trees.. That is one of the reasons I learned how to build my own.

It can be either the rawhide twisting the tree and it may be the wood twisting the tree.

I have years ago wrapped a tree in wet towels to soften the rawhide and then clamped the tree past square and then let it dry then put weights on it for a few weeks., Then let it sit for a few weeks . If it remains stable and square..and your comfortable with it.........

Edited January 21, 2009 by AndyKnight

[jonwatsabaugh]

Andy,

I'm glad to know you and Ben are laminating bars also. I've had some makers actually snicker at the fact that I'm doing such, but have always believed it was worth the extra effort. You are also correct in stating that a tree can be out of square even if it is sitting square on a machined surface. This is why I build my trees from the bottom up, not allowing the leg cuts on the front to be the absolute determining factor for position of the bars. I know most makers get along OK building from the top down, the issues I encountered didn't favor absolute precision.

Jon

[oldtimer]

Andy,

I'm glad to know you and Ben are laminating bars also. I've had some makers actually snicker at the fact that I'm doing such, but have always believed it was worth the extra effort. You are also correct in stating that a tree can be out of square even if it is sitting square on a machined surface. This is why I build my trees from the bottom up, not allowing the leg cuts on the front to be the absolute determining factor for position of the bars. I know most makers get along OK building from the top down, the issues I encountered didn't favor absolute precision.

Jon

Jon

How do you put the tree parts together, do you use screws, nails or staples ? I have a feeling that a poor assembly will have a great deal in the warping process, when the rawhide starts to shrink.

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

We would agree that to start building on this tree with that much twist is not a good thing, though when you pull old trees out of saddles it is sometimes "interesting" what you find. Agreed that it can not rock on a stone and still be crooked, and if it is built straight a 1/8" difference is not going to matter much, since it practially means that you have 1/16" difference on each side of the horse. Don't know many horses that are built that symmetrically.

We laminate some bars and not others, mainly to use wood efficiently. When we first started we didn't pay much attention to grain direction in the bars, but we soon started to make sure they were similar and we thought we had less problems keeping trees straight as they dried. Then I started keeping track of grain directions in the bars and if they were laminated or not so I could correlate it with whether they tried to go a bit off or not. There honestly doesn't seem to be a correlation. The laminated bars are just as likely as the non-laminated ones to rock a tiche according to my records. That doesn't make logical sense to me, but it is "real life" data. (We use screws and glue to put the tree together.)

Something you may want to try is to weight the tree down on a flat surface with a bit of a shim under the side that connects so you have made it rock worse. Leave it for a while - weeks - and see if it changes. If it goes back to being an "acceptable" amount of rock, take the weight off and see what it does over more time. If it stays there, great. If it gets bad again, then enjoy using it as a demo of what a tree looks like. Humidity and temperature both play a role and trees will go back and forth a bit. It is when they go way off and stay there that they cause problems. I do wonder what happens inside a saddle on the back of a sweaty horse on a hot, humid day versus a cold dry one.

[oldtimer]

We would agree that to start building on this tree with that much twist is not a good thing, though when you pull old trees out of saddles it is sometimes "interesting" what you find. Agreed that it can not rock on a stone and still be crooked, and if it is built straight a 1/8" difference is not going to matter much, since it practially means that you have 1/16" difference on each side of the horse. Don't know many horses that are built that symmetrically.

We laminate some bars and not others, mainly to use wood efficiently. When we first started we didn't pay much attention to grain direction in the bars, but we soon started to make sure they were similar and we thought we had less problems keeping trees straight as they dried. Then I started keeping track of grain directions in the bars and if they were laminated or not so I could correlate it with whether they tried to go a bit off or not. There honestly doesn't seem to be a correlation. The laminated bars are just as likely as the non-laminated ones to rock a tiche according to my records. That doesn't make logical sense to me, but it is "real life" data. (We use screws and glue to put the tree together.)

Something you may want to try is to weight the tree down on a flat surface with a bit of a shim under the side that connects so you have made it rock worse. Leave it for a while - weeks - and see if it changes. If it goes back to being an "acceptable" amount of rock, take the weight off and see what it does over more time. If it stays there, great. If it gets bad again, then enjoy using it as a demo of what a tree looks like. Humidity and temperature both play a role and trees will go back and forth a bit. It is when they go way off and stay there that they cause problems. I do wonder what happens inside a saddle on the back of a sweaty horse on a hot, humid day versus a cold dry one.

I wonder what would have happened if I had built the saddle when the tree was new and straight , and then kept the saddle in my shop under the same conditions as the tree? I think I would have had a warped saddle!

[jonwatsabaugh]

Oldtimer,

My bars are fixed stationary in my jig, and the cantle and fork are epoxied in place. After the epoxy has set for at least 8 hours, I then run 2" heavy, coated deck screws into the fork and cantle.

Jon

[jman]

I also laminate all my tree bars. I do think wood choice is very important- some has better structual integrity than others, therefore staying true to the original construction. eg Hemlock vs. Douglas fir. Also the moister content of the wood at time of construction. Rawhide thet still cures on a tree that is left un attended will slowly change the tree.

With moister and rubber bands you can bend a tree back to sit square on a table- for all that is worth, but I think that tree will be prone to move again in the future after the saddle has been build

[oldtimer]

Oldtimer,

My bars are fixed stationary in my jig, and the cantle and fork are epoxied in place. After the epoxy has set for at least 8 hours, I then run 2" heavy, coated deck screws into the fork and cantle.

Jon

Jon

That seems to be a sturdy frame. I got a crazy thought in my mind yesterday: to get rid of the rawhide ( which I think messes things up in this case) , straighten up the bars in some form of jig and fiberglass the tree. What do you think? Is that a crazy idea? It must be a better choice than having a warped tree hanging on the wall.

/ Knut

Edited January 22, 2009 by oldtimer

[kseidel]

I will interject a little more input on the subject... Many trees are straight and square in the wood before covering, and then have some rock when rawhided. This does not necessarily mean that the tree is crooked. The varying thickness of rawhide can cause one corner to be thicker and another to be thinner resulting in some rocking. Also, the rawhide will shrink more in places than others, just like a hide of leather, pulling the tree into a warped shape. The climate where I live is very dry and trees have a tendancy to change quite a bit over a few months. I have had no trouble with trees that rock as much as 1/4", if they will touch all corners with my weight pushing down on them. It is very easy to cause a tree to change shape. setting on the floor with a shim under one corner and a cement block on top will change the tree in just s few days without any moisture. Some trees have more flex than others, and may warp 1/4 to 3/8" and still be flexible enough to push flat with your arm strength on a bench top. This subject gets overworked a lot among alarmist horsemen and saddlemakers alike. My experience has taught me that there is a lot more room for error here than most are willing to accept. Remember, the "corners" of the tree never touch the horse, and there is anywhere from an inch to over two inches of leather, sheepskin and padding under the tree and it will be used on a horse in fluid motion. In addition, most of us don't use leveled skirting for our skirts and may be causing some unevenness by the different thicknesses of leather under the bars.

Oldtimer, As for your tree, if it was mine, I would simply put it on a flat surface and weight it with a couple of cement blocks with about 1/4" of shim under each tight corner. It should straighten out in a few days.

Respectfully,

Keith

[oldtimer]

Thank´s for your input, Keith. I got qurious today, what does the tree look like inside the rawhide ? So, I sacrificed the tree, pulled the rawhide, and now I can understand why trees warp ! It was the lousiest piece of wood work I´ve ever seen. The tree is assembled using a hot glue gun and staples, the left bar had a 1" knot in the stirrup leather groove and the wood is so soft you can drive in a 3" nail using your hand. No wonder that the tree warped under the pressure of drying rawhide. The tree is made by a well known tree making company. I´ll never buy a tree from them again! / Knut

Edited January 22, 2009 by oldtimer

[kseidel]

It is pretty amazing how well they hold up considering how poorly most are built! Tells you how critical the rawhide is, and how strong it really is.

Keith

[Alan Bell]

Hey Oldtimer, you could surely help a bunch of folks starting out if they knew what company made your tree. I don't think it is wrong to let folks know because you are not misrepresenting them, they made the tree the way the felt was best and without sacrificing a tree a lot of us would never know what wood was used or nails vs screws etc. Folks like Rod and Denise have published what wood is used where and why on their trees and I'd imagine other tree makers on this forum would do likewise if asked. It should not be a secret and is almost a need to know item!

Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

[gtwister09]

Hey Oldtimer, you could surely help a bunch of folks starting out if they knew what company made your tree. I don't think it is wrong to let folks know because you are not misrepresenting them, they made the tree the way the felt was best and without sacrificing a tree a lot of us would never know what wood was used or nails vs screws etc. Folks like Rod and Denise have published what wood is used where and why on their trees and I'd imagine other tree makers on this forum would do likewise if asked. It should not be a secret and is almost a need to know item!

Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

Ditto what Alan said... I agree that sharing quality vendors certainly helps the quality of the product and ultimately helps you command a higher price for your product.

Regards,

Ben

[oldtimer]

Bowden Saddle Tree Co., Inc.

FORMERLY RITTER SADDLE TREE COMPANY

made the tree. / Knut

Edited January 23, 2009 by oldtimer

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

It is pretty amazing how well they hold up considering how poorly most are built! Tells you how critical the rawhide is, and how strong it really is.

Keith

Keith,

I agree with your comments completely. The bottom line is that quality materials, and quality work make a quality product. I have always tried to stick to the "old fasiohed" ways, and never pass up a chance to aquire a really old ( late 1800's early 1900's saddle) that has been discarded because it just is too warn out for rebuilding, and taking it apart to see how the masters did it. Never too old to learn something else about the craft. Most generally they adhear to your comments.

By the way, whose trees do you use?

Bondo Bob

[kseidel]

By the way, whose trees do you use?

Bondo Bob

Bondo Bob,

Keith Gertsch of Midway Sadddle Tree Co. has been making most of my trees for over 20 years. He has a full customer base, and isn't accepting new clients at this time. Several treemakers have studied with him and others are trying to mimic his bar designs as best as possible. I will build on trees by others like Ben Swanke, Bill Bean, Rick Reed, Dennis Lane, etc. There are a few others that make good trees, and I simply haven't tried yet.

Keith

[JayNordleysSaddles]

I have had a saddle tree hanging on the wall in my shop for a couple of years. It was square when I got it but, when checking today I found out that somehow it has warped. When I put it on the bench one of the corners is about 3/8" above the bench surface. A couple of questions : How much warpage can be tolerated ? Is there a way to correct it? What would you do?

Another interesting question is :Would the tree have warped if I had built a saddle when the tree was new ? and how many horses have saddles on their backs with warped trees?

Hey there warped tree... Jay Nordley here... Most reputable tree makers will stand behind their product and warranty it for you... My first step would be to contact them and not even attempt any tree corrections. I would not build a saddle on a warped tree.

Adios,

Jay Nordley