New member with too many questions. . .

[Newfman]

How truly fortunate I am to have stumbled upon this site. I will try to learn quietly in the background as much as possible, but, I do want to introduce myself and get a little direction.

I'm Dennis in Maine, though not a "Mainer". I am from everywhere but hope when I die, it will be in MT-CO-or Wyoming (in that order. . .but, in just one, not across all three. . .I'm not that big a guy). I am not a true cowboy, at least not on the outside, but truly am in my heart. I am working on becoming a true horseman and hope one day that my horse tells me I finally made it. I am a do it yourselfer and technician type. My wife calls me MacGyver. I learned to Timberframe building my own Timber frame barn. That's pretty much it in a nutshell and kind of tells you where I am coming from. . .if not a bit weird.

So, I have been looking at saddles for 2+ years (I am decidedly a Wade/Slickfork man). The price of a well made, hand made Wade is out of my price range, and I can't bring myself to put a questionable saddle on my horse. So, that leaves one alternative, maybe. Build it yourself. The more I read here and learn here the more I think I really want to learn this. So, for my first saddle, amongst all the books and videos I need to study, do you recommend building one from a kit? Are there good ones and bad ones? any recommendations either way? Would that totally preclude ones ability to customize the ground seat shape?

Lastly (for now), We have a 4 year old German Warmblood (Oldenburg TB/ Rheinland-Pfalz-Saar) that, much to my wifes horror, is going to get to spend some of his time as a western horse as well. I also have very definate plans of adopting a wild Mustang as well. To top that off I would like to ride as many different horses as possible but can't buy a saddle for every horse. Curt Pate ( a well known horseman/clinician) uses a Wade (made by Frekkers Saddlery I believe) because, it 's design allows it to comfortably fit a variety of horse types. He never knows what students horse he will ride at a clinic. What kind of bars would be best for that type of application? Qh, semiQH etc., and what is the difference really?

Just so you know, I am fully aware that I, for now, do not imply that I could build a saddle comparable to the quality of a handmade saddle from one of the great saddlemakers out there. I just know that I will put much more care and concern into making one, than a machine can. Oh yeah, i also have two draft horses but they have their own saddle issues and aren't included in this discussion. . .for, rather big reasons!

Thank you for allowing me to be a part of this great forum!

Dennis

Limerick, Maine

[Go2Tex]

The kit can be an easy way to go, but I don't recommend it. You will be paying more and getting less for someone to put it all together for you. After you read the books and watch the videos, you will be able to purchase everything you need and you will be getting quality materials. It's going to be quite an investment anyway you do it, in tools and materials and your time to research and learn and purchase everything. So, unless you plan on make a career or major hobby out of saddlemaking and/or leather crafting, you might be just as well off in the long run buying a good used saddle.

[Newfman]

That makes a lot of sense and was what I was hoping to hear. I tend to get pretty involved in things when I decide to. As far as the investment is concerned, until I am back to work full time, educating myself is the only investment I can make at the moment.

Thanks for your response.

[Alan Bell]

Hey Dennis, I agree with Go2Tex. because of the amount you will spend on the tools and material to build your own saddle the first one cost almost as much as a custom saddle and it may not turn out as good if you do t yourself.

Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

[Newfman]

Ok, now I got it. I had assumed it would cost as much as a production model ($1500ish) not a custom ($2500-$4000). Well, in that case it certainly sounds like I would be wasting money. I didn't realize that tools would cost so much. I believe I saw a saddle kit (maybe Bowden but will have to find it again) starting at $600. I wasn't sure how much a good tree and leather would cost for a wade (not pre-cut) so there was no way for me to tell if that was junk or not. I'm a bit confused as to how much hand tools could possibly cost. I have hand forged timber-framers chisels made by a certified Samurai sword maker that only cost an average of $175 each. Which tools are pushing the cost up so high? Knives? Don't take this wrong, I am looking for your input and appreciate it. I'm just surprised by the answer, though not completely dissuaded.

Any input on the Bar angle question?

Thank you for taking the time to respond as well Alan.

p.s. I see you braide rawhide as well. I,someday will be looking for a well made working reatta. I bet there are some folks here for sure! What an incredible form of working art.

D.

[Go2Tex]

That Bowden kit, as I recall has different prices depending on if you use no. 1 grade leather, etc. If you price everything out, you are probably better off buying your own leather and parts yourself. I don't mean to discourage you from building your own. You will need some specific tools to do the job and then you will need to practice a bit with them before you attempt to cut up that nice leather for the saddle. Get a good tree. Even if the saddle turns out absolutely gorgeous, it ain't worth the price of the leather if the tree is bad.

Because you are just testing the waters, so to speak, I see no reason to buy the highest quality tools. I believe in the old theory of "pay the pain once", and get good tools that will last, but a C.S Osborne head knife at $60, for example, will do you fine for learning. It needs sharpening, though. So, it goes with the edgers. I'd have to go down the list piece by piece to price it all out on what you'll need, and you can do that yourself if you have Dusty's book and a Tandy's catalog, but some tools you already have in your tool box, I suspect. After after it's all said and done, if you don't want to build more saddles, sell them on Ebay.

You will need a drawdown stand. I can't imagine trying to build a saddle without one. You can build it yourself out of 2x4 lumber. Not a big investment. And if the saddle making thing doesn't work out, it'll make a great saddle rack.

As for that tree question. Last Wade tree I bought came to about $256 with shipping, from Timberline. I generally figure about $400 for skirting, $60 for my wool. Hardware, stirrups, latigo, rivets, glue, oil, tacks, thread, dye...... whew. You'll be looking at around $800 in materials and supplies. You can save some on the leather, maybe get it for around $300, but it might be not so good.

Since you won't have a way to split your skirting, you'll need to buy some thinner stuff for things like your bindings, stirrup covers, strainer cover. No sense trying to use the thick stuff for everything, but you can. So, you'll need a 3rd side of 7-8oz. for around $150-$180.

You can hand stitch a complete saddle.....but, that takes a lot of time. You will need a stitching horse or some way to hold your work while you stitch. There are threads on that topic on this forum. The skirts will be extremely trying. Here's a tip. Trim the wool waaay back on the edge so you can find your needles and pull them through. Another tip, get your stitching awls real nice and sharp or else buy them that way. Use candle wax to help them go through the leather easier. This is more important on your cantle and horn bindings. Then, get comfy, have a sip of your favorite libation, put on some soothing music and hide the kids and dogs, lest they learn some new words.

Good luck.

[bruce johnson]

I'll address your question on bars first. The terms QH, semiQH mean nothing between tree makers. One treemakers specs are not the same as the next. There are no standards in tree making. You are fitting two different types of horses and will have to have a way to decide what widths and angles you want. Dennis Lane's card system is in my mind the easiest. Then you have to have a tree maker who can understand what you want and or go with whatever way they are comfortable taking descriptions or measurements. There is nothing magical about a Wade tree fitting any more variety of horses than any other tree style. It all comes down to width, angle, and rock. These have nothing (or minimal) to do with the top side. Most production tree makers shoot for a middle of the road type horse. I think it would be a stretch to expect the same Bowden tree to fit a mustang and WB, but it might work.

Materials. The kit I bought several years ago seemed like a decent deal. The tree was basic, but one of the better Bowdens I have seen. The two sides of leather were long and skinny and neither one deep enough to cut a seat without getting into some real crap and butcher cuts. It takes me 2-1/2 sides on most saddles anyway. The strainer cover was the thinnest chap I have seen with 2 brands on it. The hardware was fair and the stirrups were decent for what they were. I would never buy or recommend a kit again.

Once I got past the big two treemakers, my trees run from $275 up to $600. Three sides of leather - $450-575. Woolskin - $65. Decent hardware - $100 plus. Stirrups - Monels are less expensive than my time to cover tinbounds - $120-200. Glue, oil, dye, conditioner, finish - you've got to buy some quantity you may never use the rest of - $100. Side of latigo - Almost as cheap to buy a side as two latigos and then another to cut lugs - $130. Rivets, nails, thread - again you have to buy minimums - $75. I've probably forgot something here too.

Tools - The biggest thing is a drawdown stand with a strap. You can make it or buy it. You can make one probably for $100 or buy one as nice or basic as you want. You won't find much use for it afterwards than as a saddle stand or blanket rack. I'd think that using the minimum number of bottom line Osborne tools - knives, rivet sets, pliers, spikes, etc., you would still have $300-400 minimum, and plan on spending some time sharpening every one with an edge when you get it.

How to do it - Nothing beats the experience of a good teacher. The books and videos aren't all complete. That said, the books by the Stohlmans - $150 or so and Harry Adams book - around $100. For videos for a first time - Jeremiah Watt's are the most complete and about $400.

[Newfman]

Now there is some information I can run with. http://www.jjmaxwell.com/saddle_kits_page.htm This was the kit I had found, and it was in the 1200 dollar range (the mind is the first thing to go.) I have been one to do without rather than go cheap, so the leather quality and tree quality I wouldn't really compromise on. I like Rod Nikkels philosophy, as it is right in line with how I feel about whatever work I do. So I am confident in the quality of his trees and would likely go with him if it were possible. Tools, I can handle middle of the road quality for awhile. If I have reasonable success, I would like to think that, since I will never be in a position to retire, I could make quality saddles and tack in my later years having gained enough knowledge and experience. I just need to start somewhere. As far as a draw down stand goes, I would likely build one to start out with. I recently built a saddle stand for one of my draft horses saddle. I used the coat-hanger method of tracing her whithers and back, then built the stand to that shape and size. This way her saddle rests on the shape of her back. I will figure out how to post a pic, then you could tell me if you think a taller version would work. I have not a clue how I did that.

[TrooperChuck]

I would suggest buying the Al Stohlman 3-volume Saddlemaking Encyclopedia. Those books will give you a very good idea of what it takes to build a saddle. They tell you all about the tools and leather needed, and also have plans for building your own draw-down stand.

They are fairly spendy books, but (in my opinion) quite worth the investment. Even if I'm building a saddle unlike the ones in the Stohlman books, I still use the books as reference guides.

If, after reviewing the books, you decide saddlemaking is not what you want to do, you can always sell the books (probably to someone in this forum!) to recoup some of your money.

[$$hobby]

you will also need to learn how to select your hides and to know where the good/bad parts are.

if youre really interested, you could always buy/find some old/broke/wornout junker saddles and dissect them. it will give you an idea on how much work it will take and how the saddle is assembled. maybe even look for some different makers too.

you could also look for some schools in your area that may have leathershop/crafts. Or maybe a saddle making school.

have fun.

Edited January 27, 2009 by $$hobby

[Newfman]

Thanks, I'm looking into purchasing the series right now. Studying them will give me something positive to do while waiting for work to pick back up. I met with a client of my wife's yesterday, as he has been dabling in leather work for awhile. He has a saddle kit that he bought from Tandy a few years ago. It is perfect for someone that interested in , just as a one time hobby kind of thing, or a parent/kid sort of project. I'm not sure I would put it on my horse though. I was not real impressed with the plastic tree. I'm sure that a Bowden or jjmaxwell kit is better, but I will take your advice and start from scratch. I don't want a fancy rig. Even if I had $3500 to buy a saddle right now, I would just buy a plain rough-out wade, no decorations. After I make my first saddle, I can practice tooling on the scraps. I then would like to make a second wade with some simple border decoration and maybe a few embellishments, assuming I learn to do them nice enough, but nothing major. I will be concentrating on improving my techniques from building the first saddle. Plus, I need to be able to make sure my borders land on the saddle where they were intended to go, once the leather is stretched, fit and glued. Then, see where things go from there.

Does that sound about right?

Thanks folks for the guidance.

D

[Newfman]

I just bought Al Stohlmans encylopedia vol 1 and 2 on ebay. Vol 3 had just sold before I could get it. I also watched some great Videos on www.cowboysaddlery.com The amount of info is overwhelming. Thanks folks for pointing me in a good direction.

Cheers

Dennis

[Go2Tex]

Another real handy book is the Stohlman book on all your leather tools. Tells you how to sharpen and use them. Also has lots of tips and little extras. One of my favorites to have around the shop.

The vol 1 and 2 are really the most informative and useful. The 3rd vol just gives a couple more variations of style. So, you're all set there.

[TrooperChuck]

Great advice, Brent. I forgot about Stohlman's tool book. I own a copy of it, and when I was first starting out in leathercrafting I didn't have anyone to teach me, so that book was invaluable!

Dennis... The book's full title is "Leathercraft Tools, How to Use Them, How to Sharpen Them". Fortunately, it's nowhere near as expensive as the saddlemaking books!

[mulefool]

I was going to suggest seeing if you couldn't find an old saddle that's wore out to pick up cheap and then rebuild it. I was lucky to find an old Hamley for my first project of that sort. I was lucky to find something well made, if it's not you could get some bad ideas. Chris

Edited January 29, 2009 by mulefool

[Newfman]

Thank you for the help. I will read the books and gather what infor I can from here and where ever else I can. I'm not exactly in the middle of Western Saddle making country. Getting live help may be out of the question. I like the used saddle rebuild idea, except, again I am in the wrong part of the world and finding one of good original quality is difficult or impossible. I have a lot to learn before I get to that point anyhow.

Thanks again,

Dennis

[Blake]

Hello Dennis

Watching this topic closely and reviewing your options especially after looking at the Maxwell kit I'm inclined to think that that might be a good way to start since video instruction is included and a lot of the skiving and fitting is already done. It would give you a chance to inspect and give analysis to how things fit together so that you would know if Saddle making is something that you might want to expand on. I would imagine that you could recover most if not all of your investment by selling the finished saddle if you did a good and neat job. You would also see areas that you might want to do differently the next round.

Why not ask for the names or numbers for a couple of customers that bought the kit and contact them for their input?

As someone suggested, Rebuilding a quality used saddle would also give you a tremendous amount of insight and you could more than likely recover your investment on that too.

I certainly do agree that the best way would be from personal instruction from a competent Saddle maker.

Either way, You have found a forum that has a few Saddle makers that would be more than willing to help you out with answers to any problems that you might encounter.

There is always a cost of some kind associated with education and in our chosen field it is usually time and materials during the learning curve.

Kind Regards

Blake

[Newfman]

Thanks Blake,

Getting customer input on the Maxwell kit sound like a good idea.

We built this from a couple books, so my confidence may be out running my talent. If the Maxwell Kit turns out to be of decent quality, I should have to consider it.

[img=http://i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp172/Newfman/Buffys%20Barn/AnofferingtothetimbergodsWelldone.jpg]

Edited January 31, 2009 by Newfman

[Newfman]

WOOHOO! Books are in! I like how Al writes. It is like he is in the room talking to you. Would have liked to have met him.

Thanks for recommending these books to start with.

D.