Heavily Tooled?

[JohnBarton]

I just have to add a little bit to this conversation: if some idiot wants to buy that first pictured piece over that second lovely piece of leatherwork, it's their loss (though they might keep a little more money in their pocket). Anyone looking seriously can just tell your case is much nicer.

But I agree with what others have said about it being wise for you to take the high road and try reasonably to explain the differences in laymans terms to customers.

Thank you!

I just picked two images at random - one from them and one from ours. The Russian does have some nice stuff though with some very interesting designs. A little busy and overdone in some areas for my taste but interesting and creative nonetheless.

If anyone wants to see the rest of the Russian's stuff it's here; http://www.arthit.ru/cue-cases/cue-cases-37.html

Again THANKS - blush -

P.S. My beef is not with the case maker but rather the importer who is using the "heavily tooled" description.

[BillB]

I agree. However I do think that the accepted implication of "tooled" by itself is "hand tooled". I think you find that most people use them interchangeably.

I have nothing against the use of embossers, lasers, etc.... I just think that if one is going to highlight certain aspects to enhance the description then one should be truthful about the method and not use a term that may be technically correct but is not commonly used in that manner and is intended to be taken in the more advantageous way.

For example, some of my competitors to this day will sell their vinyl cases with a little die cut leather symbol on it that says "real leather" or just "leather". And that and the handles will be the only pieces of real leather on the case. That infuriates me to no end.

Obviously most people fudge a little bit. When you say something is hand made you don't really count the power tools that you might have used to make it, be they a drill press, a dremel, a burnishing wheel and so on....

A famous cue maker once said in a debate over the use of CNC for doing inlays that when someone says that their cues are hand made then he expects them to use nothing but a knife to make it. Thus guy designed cues that were mind and wallet blowing. Thomas Wayne.

This is however why I asked what the accepted vernacular is. If everyone said tooling is tooling no matter how it's done then my objection to my competitor's description would have evaporated.

And honestly I still would love to get your combined thoughts on how these things should be described for my educational page. I'd love to cite LeatherWorker.net as the souce of the information. I don't mind sending prospective customers here to learn about leather working and what it entails. A better educated consumer is one that knows what quality is and expects to pay for it.

Since you asked for my opinion here it is:

If I have manufactured the product in question from scratch and tooled it by hand, even if I used an electric burnisher to finish it, I would advertise it as "custom designed" and "Hand Tooled"

If I used a manufactured belt blank and hand tooled it I would advertise it as "Hand Tooled".

If I used an embossing machine (hand or electric) to press the patter onto the belt blank I would advertise it as "Embossed".

If I used a Laser Engraver to Engrave the pattern on the leather I would advertise it as Laser Engraved or Etched.

That is the only way I can stay true to my Heart and my convictions. I can only judge myself to my own rules, and let the "Great Spirit" judge the rest.

BillB

[Hennessy]

Thank you!

I just picked two images at random - one from them and one from ours. The Russian does have some nice stuff though with some very interesting designs. A little busy and overdone in some areas for my taste but interesting and creative nonetheless.

If anyone wants to see the rest of the Russian's stuff it's here; http://www.arthit.ru/cue-cases/cue-cases-37.html

Again THANKS - blush -

P.S. My beef is not with the case maker but rather the importer who is using the "heavily tooled" description.

i 'm a bit slow getting mind n fingers goin together here's what i'm parabling about.toyota

started out with a car or two and overcame every kind of negative from all over.every time the competition drew level they pull'd one more out of th hat.celica corolla etc etc now they have a line that doesen't even bear their name lexus and every one knows. now is that sales or marketing?seems to me,availability to various levels of purchasers means more sales and thus more referals pete

[JohnBarton]

i 'm a bit slow getting mind n fingers goin together here's what i'm parabling about.toyota

started out with a car or two and overcame every kind of negative from all over.every time the competition drew level they pull'd one more out of th hat.celica corolla etc etc now they have a line that doesen't even bear their name lexus and every one knows. now is that sales or marketing?seems to me,availability to various levels of purchasers means more sales and thus more referals pete

I am not sure that you point, which is well taken, has to do with the topic. I am not sure but I think that Jaguar or Rolls Royce says something about hand fitted interiors or doors or something. Something about what they do is labor intensive with a lot of attention to detail and done by superior craftsmen. If Toyota had said that their interiors were "hand-fitted" simply because at some point a human being touched them and the purpose of saying it was to make people think that they were done with as much care as Rolls Royce interiors then it would be misleading. I think that is a comparable example, at least as best I can come up with to fit your car analogy.

What I am really looking for in this thread is just to see if we can come up with terms that most of us agree on would be proper descriptions for different styles of decoration.

I don't consider any for of decoration to be either good or bad or one any "worse" or "better" than any other. For example to me an artfully placed decal is better than a crappily tooled image. I have seen some amazing stuff done with a laser engraver by people who take the time to understand and operate their laser in such a way that it function's like a brush in the hand of an artist. And I think that someone with embossing plates can make some interesting designs. All I want though is either NO MENTION of what method it is - which allows the product to stand on it's own without regard to how it got there - or, proper descriptions of what method was used so that the customer is not misled into thinking that one method equals another in terms of the knowledge and talent it took to bring it about.

I can take a pattern image, say a celtic knot, and laser engrave it, make a plate and emboss, and also tool it. Only the tooled version can show true diversity of character and depth through subtle touches. Let's say I made a contest where the folks here were challenged with tooling a celtic knot but were not allowed to add any extra decoration to it, just the knot with beveled edges and the surface texture could be flat or dimpled. You and I both know that even with those limitations we would see a bunch of knots that would blow us away. My entire point is that if I made a plate of the knot and embossed it then there is no way that this should be judged on the same level or made out to be equal to the knots that were hand tooled.

Anyway, I think we are on the right track and I will definitely be using some of the information from this thread. Thanks everyone and if you have something to add to it please do. Hopefully my "education" page will serve as something you can use for your own marketing - anyone is free to copy and use my information once I publish it on the web as long as you provide a link back to my page.

[TroyWest]

One other thought that I had would be to do this. I dont know if you do any press plates or have access to any, but, if you could take a floral pattern that was pressed or embossed into the leather. Then have someone hand carve the exact same pattern. Color them the same. Then simply ask anyone who comes by. Which of these looks better? I believe the hand carved one would win every time. You could then easily explain the difference. This one took 30 seconds, this one took 2 hrs., 3hrs., etc., to tool this one panel. This would explain and justify the difference in cost. Our industry is very much a visual industry. It is about quality, but it is very much about how it looks. The pressed one may look pretty good on its own, but when put up beside a hand carved one it will pale.

[JohnBarton]

One other thought that I had would be to do this. I dont know if you do any press plates or have access to any, but, if you could take a floral pattern that was pressed or embossed into the leather. Then have someone hand carve the exact same pattern. Color them the same. Then simply ask anyone who comes by. Which of these looks better? I believe the hand carved one would win every time. You could then easily explain the difference. This one took 30 seconds, this one took 2 hrs., 3hrs., etc., to tool this one panel. This would explain and justify the difference in cost. Our industry is very much a visual industry. It is about quality, but it is very much about how it looks. The pressed one may look pretty good on its own, but when put up beside a hand carved one it will pale.

Using our laser I can make embossing plates out of wood and some linen based resin sheets. It would be similar to making the Craftaid tapoffs except that it would be the pattern in reverse.

I like that idea. Do the same design in embossed, lasered, and hand tooled along with what kind of time and effort went into doing it.

I have to say that sometimes a lasered design can have a lot of time involved in it. I can tell you that I often spend hours doing stuff for a case that will be laser cut or laser engraved that require lots of tweaking and trial and error until it's right. And often this is all done for a one-off use. The upside, like anything, is that the next time something similar comes up then it goes much faster.

But yeah, I think that your idea is a winner and the way to go, better to compare apples to apples instead of only using images of different items.

[celticleather]

Yet again, John Ruskin's words seem to be appropriate:

'There is hardly anything in the world that some men cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey.'

[JohnBarton]

Yet again, John Ruskin's words seem to be appropriate:

'There is hardly anything in the world that some men cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey.'

Well, while these words are true they don't take into account that those who make the goods worse and cheaper don't advertise the fact that they are worse and cheaper.

It is unreasonable to expect all consumers to become experts on quality when it comes to judging the products that they would like to own.

Consumers who ONLY buy on price deserve what they get I suppose. But what about the ones who are looking at quality and they have two sellers who both claim to have top quality but only one really does?

I consider it unfair practice when sellers start with the embellishments bordering on untruth to build up their stuff. Sort of like shooting wildlife from helicopters. :-)

I mean, at some point there has got to be some kind of trust between what is claimed and what is received.

I confess to being prey several times in my life though.

I guess in light of this thread, the one on pricing, and especially for the one on luxury brands that this quote is a fitting one to pair with yours,

Gucci Family Slogan

"Quality is remembered long after the price is forgotten. "

[RustyMelton]

Hi John, I see on the link to the makers website you provided that it does claim that each case is hand tooled. In another sentence it says the cases are beautifully carved and decorated with hand tooled art. That is in a section on the page that says gallery review, so I don't know if the maker is saying this or who. Is this the makers site or the distributors site? Or maybe somewhere on the cases there is some hand tooling and carving in addition to the embossed area. I would be willing to bet if you put one your carved cases and one of the competitors embossed cases in the hands of the person who questioned your pricing and the questions would float away like smoke in a wind storm. No comparison.

[TroyWest]

Using our laser I can make embossing plates out of wood and some linen based resin sheets. It would be similar to making the Craftaid tapoffs except that it would be the pattern in reverse.

I like that idea. Do the same design in embossed, lasered, and hand tooled along with what kind of time and effort went into doing it.

I have to say that sometimes a lasered design can have a lot of time involved in it. I can tell you that I often spend hours doing stuff for a case that will be laser cut or laser engraved that require lots of tweaking and trial and error until it's right. And often this is all done for a one-off use. The upside, like anything, is that the next time something similar comes up then it goes much faster.

But yeah, I think that your idea is a winner and the way to go, better to compare apples to apples instead of only using images of different items.

John,

A relatively simple way to make a press plate. Have a carver tool 2 identical pieces, say wallet size roughly 4 x 10", but leave one maybe 1" larger than where the border stops. Then build a small wall around the larger piece on that border. You can do this by glueing 2 layers of skirting, 1/2" wide on top of each other. You will then paint that with a releasing agent, all over the tooling and the small walls. I think it's called PVA releasing agent, sort of a clear green color, comes in quart bottles. You can use fiberglass resin or epoxy resin, mix it up, pour on the leather, place some fiberglass cloth in that, a bit more resin, til you have about 3/8" to 1/2" thick. Let er cure, and pull it apart. You now have a press plate that will press the pattern exactly like the other piece of leather that is hand carved. Now all you need is a big press to push it into the leather. I dont know if that would be easier than the method you are currently using, but I do know thousands of press plates have been made in this fashion. Hope that helps.

Troy West

[JohnBarton]

John,

A relatively simple way to make a press plate. Have a carver tool 2 identical pieces, say wallet size roughly 4 x 10", but leave one maybe 1" larger than where the border stops. Then build a small wall around the larger piece on that border. You can do this by glueing 2 layers of skirting, 1/2" wide on top of each other. You will then paint that with a releasing agent, all over the tooling and the small walls. I think it's called PVA releasing agent, sort of a clear green color, comes in quart bottles. You can use fiberglass resin or epoxy resin, mix it up, pour on the leather, place some fiberglass cloth in that, a bit more resin, til you have about 3/8" to 1/2" thick. Let er cure, and pull it apart. You now have a press plate that will press the pattern exactly like the other piece of leather that is hand carved. Now all you need is a big press to push it into the leather. I dont know if that would be easier than the method you are currently using, but I do know thousands of press plates have been made in this fashion. Hope that helps.

Troy West

Thanks! If nothing else I have just learned how to cast an embossing plate.

:-)

[JohnBarton]

Hi John, I see on the link to the makers website you provided that it does claim that each case is hand tooled. In another sentence it says the cases are beautifully carved and decorated with hand tooled art. That is in a section on the page that says gallery review, so I don't know if the maker is saying this or who. Is this the makers site or the distributors site? Or maybe somewhere on the cases there is some hand tooling and carving in addition to the embossed area. I would be willing to bet if you put one your carved cases and one of the competitors embossed cases in the hands of the person who questioned your pricing and the questions would float away like smoke in a wind storm. No comparison.

I didn't catch that Rusty. Well then I guess my beef is with the maker or whoever is describing them like that on the other site as well.

I am sure that side by side that the reason ours is priced higher would be apparent. However you know that on the internet you can say anything you want and make everything out to be what it's not.

I need to talk to you about your handles by the way. I can show you how to do them another way that is more comfortable for the user and still easy to do.

[RustyMelton]

I didn't catch that Rusty. Well then I guess my beef is with the maker or whoever is describing them like that on the other site as well.

I am sure that side by side that the reason ours is priced higher would be apparent. However you know that on the internet you can say anything you want and make everything out to be what it's not.

I need to talk to you about your handles by the way. I can show you how to do them another way that is more comfortable for the user and still easy to do.

John I didn't like the handles much either. I'm going to post a case in the show off section with a little different handle, but please don't let it stop you from showing me your idea also. I'm always looking for ideas.

[TexasLady]

Quoting-

Windy

Posted 29 January 2009 - 04:28 PM

I understand your frustration. After looking at your

web site I would suggest that you heed your own

words. Go and change all those "I made" into the

truth of "my company made". Talk about misleading

as one can get. When I read "I made" I take to mean

you made it personally,when in all reality your team

made it. Of course this is alright since you admit

to not taking the high road all the time.

I will definitely go back and look at it. I do need to review what I write on the website from time to time as things change. Sometimes I deliberately write "I made" instead of "we made" because the thing I am talking about is in fact something that I made, be it the design from concept through to actual piece, or even something that I did all by myself. Generally when I say "I made" then I am speaking of something that came to fruition through my direction that is unique and fresh.

I just went back to see if I could find any thing that was misleading and I have to say that from the front page on I have been real clear abotu the fact that I do not work alone. However I do take 100% credit for the existence of JB Cases and how they are built. I don't find it to be misleading in the least if once in a while on the site I say something like "cases I build" because these are cases that "I" build in the sense that they would not exist but for me creating them in my mind first and bringing together the talent and tools to get them done. It really depends on context and in the context of the site I really don't think anyone who reads through it could come to the impression that I am working alone building cases.

However, if you would point out whatever really jumps out at you as coming across as misleading then I will be happy to look at it and rewrite it so that it is clear. Your point is well noted and I will certainly be reviewing the site in depth to insure that I am not leading anyone into thinking that I am doing all this work by myself. That is the last thing I would want.

Thank you for bringing this up.

John

Regarding saying "I made" something versus saying "my team made" something, I thought of an ancient example of the one responsible being credited with the resultant work, even though others were employed. When you read this verse, it says-

"But Phar′aohs daughter came up from the City of David to her own house that he had built for her; then he built the Mound." - 1 Kings 9:24.

But if you read what's written above and below that verse, it's obvious that Solomon didn't do all that building all by himself.

http://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/1-kings/9/#v11009024

Edited August 26, 2015 by TexasLady