Pricing your work

[budd4766]

Got a question...or a gripe, maybe..

Why is it, that people will pay $50~$60 or more for a machine made leather product, but they expect you to hand make one for them for $20, and you almost have to dial 911 when you tell them what you'd really charge them? I get that a lot.

I suppose because I know what goes into making stuff, I'm more willing to pay for the craftsmanship of a hand-made item, but not everybody "gets it" I suppose. Just frustrating.

[fred3777]

You will find that your work is not monetarily appreciated by your customers like you think it should. Dont worry about it. Price it fairly, they will either pay you for it or wont be back. You could also implement a deposit on all orders. I do and it takes the guess work and hard feelings out of it. Custom work is custom work, you do it because they want it made. Also friends and family will never want to pay what it is worth for your time and effort. just my opinion

[Bree]

Got a question...or a gripe, maybe..

Why is it, that people will pay $50~$60 or more for a machine made leather product, but they expect you to hand make one for them for $20, and you almost have to dial 911 when you tell them what you'd really charge them? I get that a lot.

I suppose because I know what goes into making stuff, I'm more willing to pay for the craftsmanship of a hand-made item, but not everybody "gets it" I suppose. Just frustrating.

Machine made products are typically very precise and repeatable. People often see that as valuable. They see the machines themselves as valuable and expensive. They sometimes don't see people as having the same worth as a multi-million dollar machine.

Custom work is sometimes viewed as imprecise since two different pieces of the same kind will exhibit variation... like knots in boards. What we often view as prized features, the public rightly or wrongly can view as flaws.

[MaddCelt]

This is one of the reasons a friend of mine stopped making leather items to sell. He would watch people buy cheap made items that weren't anything close to the quality he did. As he put it, he cannot compete with India, so he stopped.

[Suze]

Got a question...or a gripe, maybe..

Why is it, that people will pay $50~$60 or more for a machine made leather product, but they expect you to hand make one for them for $20, and you almost have to dial 911 when you tell them what you'd really charge them? I get that a lot.

I suppose because I know what goes into making stuff, I'm more willing to pay for the craftsmanship of a hand-made item, but not everybody "gets it" I suppose. Just frustrating.

I saw this a lot in the miniture and craft world - I put it down to the attitude that if it comes from the hands of someone you can see it is "homemade" (They don't see "handCRAFTED")

Homemade is not "nearly" as good as what you can buy in the stores....(Riiiight)

then there is the attitude that "I can get that at "X-Mart" for half of what you are charging - why should I pay YOU more - it's homemade you should charge LESS than the store.

BAH

I charge what I think is a fair price for my time and talent (in the dollhouse world - materials are almost not worth figuring in) If you don't want to pay it - go to "X-Mart" there are enough others that ARE willing to pay it, I don't need you.

The hard part for me though is that I look at so many projects that are at craft shows and say to myself that "you know you CAN make that if you wanted to" (not that I could do half of the things you all do, but turn a piece of leather into a circle pouch......how much skill does THAT take? Cut circle out of leather - cut a few holes around the edge and stick a string in them $20.00 for a 8 inch circle.)

I would rather pay the person sitting behind a booth - than X-Mart - or a party plan (I'm thinking of a company that makes baskets)

[Wyvern]

I think that if people have never actually made something themselves, they have no appreciation for Hand Crafted products.

[budd4766]

I feel I must make a confession, however.

While walking through one of the shopping areas in Santa Fe at Christmas last year, I came upon a glass case with various leather goods displayed for sale. Of course, the prices were astronomical...muy expensive stuff.

While I was looking closer at the items for sale, I noticed...the were all finished Tandy kits items! And, while I can't knock somebody who finishes a really good kit item...these were not, let us say, of any extraordinary quality workmanship.

First thought I had was, "Pffft, Amateur!" I'm sure he did get a tourist sale every now and then, but I wouldn't have paid much of anything for the things I'd seen there.

Honestly, I hope they do well, there, because it's a fellow leathercrafter, but I wouldn't have bought any of it, personally...because I know it wouldn't take much effort to have done better work.

I guess it's all a matter of perspective.

[Suze]

I think that if people have never actually made something themselves, they have no appreciation for Hand Crafted products.

And there it is in a nutshell - people

If you have ever tried a craft - no matter how BAD it came out, you at least have some CLUE as the effort that it takes to make something.

There are tons of crafts that I tried over the years and decided that they weren't for me. (I really should get rid of some of the "debris" of them)

[Windy]

I feel I must make a confession, however.

While walking through one of the shopping areas in Santa Fe at Christmas last year, I came upon a glass case with various leather goods displayed for sale. Of course, the prices were astronomical...muy expensive stuff.

While I was looking closer at the items for sale, I noticed...the were all finished Tandy kits items! And, while I can't knock somebody who finishes a really good kit item...these were not, let us say, of any extraordinary quality workmanship.

First thought I had was, "Pffft, Amateur!" I'm sure he did get a tourist sale every now and then, but I wouldn't have paid much of anything for the things I'd seen there.

Honestly, I hope they do well, there, because it's a fellow leathercrafter, but I wouldn't have bought any of it, personally...because I know it wouldn't take much effort to have done better work.

I guess it's all a matter of perspective.

How do you know it would not have taken much effort to

have done better? Do you know this person?

WINDY

[budd4766]

How do you know it would not have taken much effort to

have done better? Do you know this person?

WINDY

Nope. Have no idea who made the items I saw...and there's nothing personal in that assessment on the quality of the work. The only basis I had to judge it by were the items on display themselves, and that's what I based my critique on. They looked like somebody bought a tandy kit and just threw it together and jacked the price up because it was in a tourist-y spot.

[RustyMelton]

I feel I must make a confession, however.

While walking through one of the shopping areas in Santa Fe at Christmas last year, I came upon a glass case with various leather goods displayed for sale. Of course, the prices were astronomical...muy expensive stuff.

While I was looking closer at the items for sale, I noticed...the were all finished Tandy kits items! And, while I can't knock somebody who finishes a really good kit item...these were not, let us say, of any extraordinary quality workmanship.

First thought I had was, "Pffft, Amateur!" I'm sure he did get a tourist sale every now and then, but I wouldn't have paid much of anything for the things I'd seen there.

Honestly, I hope they do well, there, because it's a fellow leathercrafter, but I wouldn't have bought any of it, personally...because I know it wouldn't take much effort to have done better work.

I guess it's all a matter of perspective.

It sounds like around this area. I live near Branson Mo and most things for sale around here are aimed at the tourists. There are quilt stores and quilt stands all over town that advertise hand-made or hand crafted quilts. It's really a joke how bad they are, maybe 3 stitches per inch. I've never made a quilt in my life and could make a better one. Of course I do see alot of them made since my wife sews them all night long after she gets home from work. The funny thing is they sell like crazy, I guess it's in the eyes of the beholder. I guess in all fairness they are hand-sewn just poorly done and also there is one store that does sell nice quilts.

[Vinkimus]

Man do i feel what you are talking about!!!

I get that so often that i wonder sometimes if a single craftsman can live by selling his handmade items.Here in greece people are willing to pay almost any amount for something(a leather bag for example) as long as it is displayed is a show window.When you tell them you can make the same thing for the same money and with higher quality leather too they think you are joking and of course they refuse.Even if they like something handmade a lot they never want to pay for it as a "handmade" item.

A couple of years ago i used to make leather tobbaco cases just to make some money(or so i thought) for more advanced leather projects.I displayed them at a place where also other handcraftsmen would come to do the same with their stuff(jewelry,leathergoods etc).I was surprised by the way of thinking i had to deal with everyday...The people were unwilling to buy anything from me with a price above 30$ even if it was obvious that it did worth double or more.The most frustrating thing is that a minute later they would buy a tobbaco case far worse for 5-7 bucks less from someone else!And it was clearly visible that it was worse(each of mine would take 3-4 hours to make while the ones sold by others for a few $ less where made in less than 20min-I have seen that with my own eyes.The leather they used was cheap,the stiching lame and the overall looking artsy craftsy).Two months later they would come back to the other craftsmen complaining about the case they bought and saying it had already fallen apart.Yet again they would buy a bad tobbaco case when by giving 5-10$ more they could buy one from me.The ones that i gifted to people that i know are still,2 years after, as new.The same problem were facing some guys selling silver handmade rings.Rings of excellent quality and craft were never bought although they cost no more than 40$ when the tourist shops around would sell massively produced rings that sucked for incredible prices.

So its not only that they dont appreciate something handmade but also that they would buy it when it is extremely-ridicoulusly cheap even if in the end they will have given more money replacing it everytime it turns useless.

It's also beyond my way of thinking how easily they would pay 200$ more for the same thing with a brand mark on it.My girlfriend saw some very expensive leather sandals from a well-known brand and i was able to make em in a day's work for nothing!They were IDENTICAL with the original.But if i would try to sell them noone would be persuaded to buy them.

It is just pity because even when i find people that treasure handcrafted stuff they scarcely have the money required to actually buy something handmade.

[Jordan]

"Don't be seduced into thinking that sloppy work is the hallmark of handmade pieces. Handcutting, stitching and basket stamping are not necessarily marks of top quality pieces unless they are done in a top quality manner." From J. Bianchi Blue Steel and Gunleather page 188 on the topic of How to judge handcraft quality. Charge a fair price that the market will bear and do not compromise on the quality of your work. If they don't buy it they did not want it.

[Vinkimus]

"Don't be seduced into thinking that sloppy work is the hallmark of handmade pieces. Handcutting, stitching and basket stamping are not necessarily marks of top quality pieces unless they are done in a top quality manner." From J. Bianchi Blue Steel and Gunleather page 188 on the topic of How to judge handcraft quality. Charge a fair price that the market will bear and do not compromise on the quality of your work. If they don't buy it they did not want it.

I mostly believe that handcrafting is to create something with respect and care.I mentioned the stiching and the time it took me to make each case not to proove that they were makings of excellence but to show that I gave value to the money people would pay if they were to buy something from me.That I had in mind I would only be able to make few pieces per week but good enough to last for many years and make the owner deeply satisfied.The strange thing is that they were eager to buy my cases until the price would come up.As budd4766 points out they almost get a heart attack if they hear a price slightly more expensive than the one assumed.I must admit though my prices were a bit more expensive compared to the rest but only a bit.It's usually not a craftsman that sees sloppy work as characteristic of handmade pieces but people like the ones mentioned by budd.To them handmade pieces is all about sloppy work thats why they tend to expect a 20$cost.

[Jordan]

I meant no offense I just posted the quote to show there are a variety of way that people judge machine vs hand work. The opposite is also true of machine work it can be terrible too if not done with care. As I said, if people do not buy a piece for the asking price they really did not want it. Also after buying 4 or 5 items for less that end up falling apart they will buy a quality piece if they want it.

[Vinkimus]

I meant no offense I just posted the quote to show there are a variety of way that people judge machine vs hand work. The opposite is also true of machine work it can be terrible too if not done with care. As I said, if people do not buy a piece for the asking price they really did not want it. Also after buying 4 or 5 items for less that end up falling apart they will buy a quality piece if they want it.

I know you meant no offence,and I absolutely agree with everything you have said! In the end it is true that if someone wants something really bad he wont hesitate even if the price is high!

[CliffFendley]

Many of the people that really know and can tell the difference in quality custom work can make their own.

[Lobo]

I make holsters and related accessories. When I started (37 years ago) my market was limited to people I knew and worked with in law enforcement. Every order was a one-at-a-time project, and the prices I charged provided little profit for the actual time expended. That was fine because, as a young policeman raising two kids on a limited salary, every little bit helped.

I learned to save a lot of time in production by making multiple items in each "production run". If I had an order for a holster for a popular handgun, I would make several. It is amazing how much time is saved simply by not having to set up each stage of the process again and again.

Leather work remained a modestly profitable hobby-business for many years.

Now, my marketplace is the world, via the internet. I have expanded on this same principle, making a production run each week including the special orders (usually 8 or 10 items) along with regular production of items that sell readily. I do a production run each week that includes about 30 or so items, and complete each stage one day at a time.

Making a single holster involves patterning, cutting, sewing, edge finishing, forming, hardware attachment, and finishing. To make a single unit would require about 2 to 3 hours total over several days (drying times, etc. require separation of the processes). Making 30 items usually takes me about 18 to 22 hours (about 40 minutes total on each item). Average profit for the time spent (after materials costs) is usually $25 to $35 per item. On the single item, I might be making $10 or $15 per hour for my time. On the production run of 30 items, that profit increases to the equivalent of about $35 to $40 per hour of my time.

True special orders for a specific design (not one of my regular patterns) are completed for a negotiated price, which I arrive at by estimating materials costs and work time. If materials cost is $10 and work time is 3 hours total, I price the item at $100 (materials plus $30 per hour). Not every quote results in a sale, but those that do generate a reasonable profit.

The hobbyist, making a single item as much for personal enjoyment as for the sale price to be anticipated, can put in as much time as is required. Perhaps in hind sight the hobbyist will feel slighted by the compensation for the time, effort, and talent applied.

From a business standpoint, if there is not a reasonable profit to be anticipated, the job is not worth doing.

This is what has worked for me, and has recently resulted in leasing commercial space to continue the business outside the home. With any significant increase in volume I hope to be training an assistant to perform much of the work, while I concentrate more on sales and marketing. Right now I'm having no trouble keeping a two-to-three week production cycle filled, delivering to the customer pretty quickly, and I'd like to keep it that way.

Best of luck to all.

[JoeNots]

I make holsters and related accessories. When I started (37 years ago) my market was limited to people I knew and worked with in law enforcement. Every order was a one-at-a-time project, and the prices I charged provided little profit for the actual time expended. That was fine because, as a young policeman raising two kids on a limited salary, every little bit helped.

I learned to save a lot of time in production by making multiple items in each "production run". If I had an order for a holster for a popular handgun, I would make several. It is amazing how much time is saved simply by not having to set up each stage of the process again and again.

Leather work remained a modestly profitable hobby-business for many years.

Now, my marketplace is the world, via the internet. I have expanded on this same principle, making a production run each week including the special orders (usually 8 or 10 items) along with regular production of items that sell readily. I do a production run each week that includes about 30 or so items, and complete each stage one day at a time.

Making a single holster involves patterning, cutting, sewing, edge finishing, forming, hardware attachment, and finishing. To make a single unit would require about 2 to 3 hours total over several days (drying times, etc. require separation of the processes). Making 30 items usually takes me about 18 to 22 hours (about 40 minutes total on each item). Average profit for the time spent (after materials costs) is usually $25 to $35 per item. On the single item, I might be making $10 or $15 per hour for my time. On the production run of 30 items, that profit increases to the equivalent of about $35 to $40 per hour of my time.

True special orders for a specific design (not one of my regular patterns) are completed for a negotiated price, which I arrive at by estimating materials costs and work time. If materials cost is $10 and work time is 3 hours total, I price the item at $100 (materials plus $30 per hour). Not every quote results in a sale, but those that do generate a reasonable profit.

The hobbyist, making a single item as much for personal enjoyment as for the sale price to be anticipated, can put in as much time as is required. Perhaps in hind sight the hobbyist will feel slighted by the compensation for the time, effort, and talent applied.

From a business standpoint, if there is not a reasonable profit to be anticipated, the job is not worth doing.

This is what has worked for me, and has recently resulted in leasing commercial space to continue the business outside the home. With any significant increase in volume I hope to be training an assistant to perform much of the work, while I concentrate more on sales and marketing. Right now I'm having no trouble keeping a two-to-three week production cycle filled, delivering to the customer pretty quickly, and I'd like to keep it that way.

Best of luck to all.

Thanks you for your input. I was reading through this thread & thinking that i'll never make a dime! I just needed to hear something positive i guess. Thanks

[hivemind]

Most of the stuff I sell, as opposed to make for myself, gets bought by local re-enactors and LARPers in my area. Over the last several years, there's been more and more people who have started to try their hand at making some leather goods, which has driven prices down a bit. However, I am the only maker with professional tools who makes quality goods on time. All the others are either guys with a rotary punch, a rivet setter and a utility knife (and nothing else), or guys who can't do anything on time or within budget.

Recently, I've decided to triple my prices. If people want to buy amateur hour crap, let them. If they want to wait eight or ten months for a piece to save a few bucks, let them. If people want professional quality work, delivered on time, they call me.

There's an old engineering adage: "You can have it fast, you can have it cheap, you can have it good. Pick two."

I'm the guy they call when you want good and fast.

[sheathmaker]

I have been involved with leather craft since 1951 so I've done my share of "hand made" "hand stitched" etc. I've also made a few observations in general and in this thread.

Some of the things that are suggested that I do not agree with are:

Hand sewn is no more attractive, stronger, or better quality in general than machine sewn. Either, if done with loving care and precision will look and serve just fine and neither is better than the other......but I can stitch two or three running feet around as many curves as you like in about 15 to 20 seconds. How fast can you hand stitch?? Mine will look as good as yours and I'll bet big money on that. Mine will last as long as yours and I'll bet big money on that as well.

My inlayed goods are as good as any I've seen and they are all hand cut and machine stitched, a blending of the two methods.

I make and deliver about 600 knife sheaths a year based on the last three year's production. Each one has it's own design pattern and is hand cut and machine sewn. I charge a relatively high price ranging from $75 to $300 depending on complexity and size. I've have a constant flow of orders, but because I utilize machinery in the process my turn around time is generally four days or less. Consistant quality seems to be the key along with speedy delivery that allow me to have little resistance to my pricing.

Really fine hand finished edges are another thing I devote particular attention to. This is part of the customer's "first impression" which sets their mood as to whether it was "worth every penny" or not. The amount of repeat business I get makes me think it "was worth every penny".

When you start to wonder about the whys of customer acceptance of your pricing, I think the first place to look might be the quality and CONSISTANCY of your work.

None of this is meant to incite you to a flame war with me, but rather to offer you another perspective for improvement of your pricing acceptance.

I am posting below a truly random photo representing the average of my production as it was the very last one I finished last Saturday. I certainly would not hold this example up as some of my very best work.

Paul

Edited April 13, 2009 by sheathmaker

[kevinhopkins]

Pricing leather products has been a challenge for many for years... It's been my experience that if you can approach the sales of your product from a position of strength, along with a huge dose of humility and sincerety, folks will generally pay the price if you can help them to see the value of your workmanship.

Kevin Hopkins

[Johanna]

You know you have selected the right price when the customers gasps, and reaches for his wallet.

~J