JohnBarton Posted February 24, 2009 Report Posted February 24, 2009 Hi, once again I need your help. I am going to couch this question in the hypothetical realm and just ask you how you would handle it. Hypothetically, someone asks for offers on a leather case and suggestions and offers come pouring in. A person who is not a leather worker and not a seller chimes in to recommend another maker who hasn't made a public offer yet. This person enthusiastically promotes the leather worker's work as being the next closest thing to a famous maker's work who is no longer actively making leather cases. (also this person has probably never actually had hands on experience with either maker's work) The famous maker has been in working leather for nearly 60 years and his stuff is very high end and very detailed and very very well made. The person being promoted has been doing cases for a little while and is coming along well but there really isn't any basis to put the two in the same league yet. This is not a question of someone shilling for the new guy for profit, nor does the enthusiast stand to gain financially from his statements, he just really feels that the work is that good. The new guy also does not feel that he is in the same league (although his cases are good and might well get there). A bystander who is in the business, hypothetically someone like me, who has actually worked with the legendary leather worker sees this comparison and decides to set the record straight about it and disagree that the two people's work is at or near the same level. My question to you is what would you do if you were the person who disagreed? Would you let it slide? Would you try to educate the readers as to the differences? Would you just post up pictures and let the readers make their own comparisons? The follow up question is do you think we all have a responsibility to uphold the heritage of great leather work? When we see misinformation about our craft should we try to correct it? Or is that going to be detrimental and seen only as self-serving and jealous? Hypothetically, I am looking for some validation and cheap therapy here :-) Quote Support Quality. We are all humans. Buy the best no matter where it's made. That way everyone lives in harmony. Nature knows no flags.
Contributing Member UKRay Posted February 24, 2009 Contributing Member Report Posted February 24, 2009 Of course we should uphold our leather working heritage, John, and we should keep referring to it as we work to ensure standards improve rather than decline. Without 'benchmarks' we are unable to gauge the extent of our development or regression. By the same token, respect for, and understanding of, a great crafts person's work is essential if we want to progress beyond their boundaries or limitations. Sadly, there will always be people who appoint themselves experts after ten minutes acquaintance with a subject. They will often make the most noise in any group and will rarely accept any level of correction even if the person doing the correcting is an acknowledged expert. We have all met them... The one thing they tend to have in common is an inability to accept that they may be wrong so it makes little sense to expend time and energy trying to argue with them. IMHO the only route forward is through a program of education. Simply putting pictures on display won't be enough if you don't know or understand what you are looking at or looking for. Any one who sets out to educate must face up to the fact that some folk just won't be taught. The rest will thank you for your efforts and appreciate the time you have taken to help them understand. Educators are rarely self-serving - ask any teacher if they do it for the money! This is just my opinion and almost certainly worth precisely what you paid for it... Quote "Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps" Ray Hatley www.barefootleather.co.uk
Members wildrose Posted February 24, 2009 Members Report Posted February 24, 2009 UKRay put it very well. What I'd add, in ref. to your closing comment/question, is that I always try to educate people about the field. When they ask me "how did you do that design?" "is that stamped on?" "does the leather come in that color?" etc etc, I show them and/or explain. If they don't understand what went into a piece, they will surely not feel like paying what you're asking. Quote Holly Moore Wild Rose Creations http://www.wrcleather.com
Suze Posted February 24, 2009 Report Posted February 24, 2009 Ok here goes - an "outsiders" view Abby is looking for a case. Benny and Claude have offered to make one now here comes George and says that you HAVE to get one from Darin His is sooo close to Zeke's (the master leatherworker) that you will never know the difference. And Will Not Let It Drop. Darin has never heard of Abby or her wants- but maybe George tells him about it. Darin KNOWS that his stuff is not as good a Zeke's, which is why he never offered in the first place. First George is CLUELESS and Benny and Claude and Darin know this. I think that it is Darin's place to tell George to SHUT UP ALREADY and let it die. I also think that if you jump in with "help" in educating people about the differeces in the workmanship you will only make Darin's work look bad by comparison and that might hurt his future sales. I might send a quiet e-mail to Darin about what George is doing - If he already doesn't know about it. That's my story and I'm sticking to it....... Quote Reality is for people who lack imagination Whether you think you can or think you can't - you are right. ~Henry Ford
Contributing Member Denise Posted February 24, 2009 Contributing Member Report Posted February 24, 2009 Ahh A perfect spot to use a quote I recently found: "Really, it does seem that a good deal of grief could be spared if people would confine their vociferations to things they know something about or at least to regions where their ignorance is not so conspicuous. Why fools are endowed by nature with voices so much louder than sensible folks possess is a mystery. It is a fact emphasized throughout history." Arthur E. Hertzler, MD from The Horse and Buggy Doctor, 1938. Doesn't help answer the question, but sure fits the situation. Quote
Members Windy Posted February 24, 2009 Members Report Posted February 24, 2009 John, As long as you are in competition with the subjects at hand , there will always been some suspicion when you offer an opinion. You can point out the differences in the amount of time the two have been working with leather.Although in my opinion this means very little. Some people advance at a much faster rate than others. I believe some people have what I call natural ability. I have seen many a leather workers web site stating they have been working in leather for fifty or sixty years and you look at their stuff and wonder if they meant by working in leather they killed cows for fifty years then started actually making leather goods last week. Mu suggestion would be to tell the person interested in the cases to see them in person or ask for high resolution photos of their latest cases. As is so often stated in the business world "you are only as good as your last job" .Translation for all those who need it , it means winning a blue ribbon ten years ago means nothing today. As Ray pointed out , some people will never know the difference in quality when all the see is the design not the workmanship. And let us be honest here , how many of us when we buy things go for the better quality over the more stylish.You know people are funny creatures. Now for a small fee I will join the billiard site and promote your cases as feverishly as the other guy is promoting the competitions. Just a small fee say a little something unique to China. Oh let me think what comes to mind. Oh I know just send me a small piece of that wood they call "the emperors wood". I am sure you can find a small piece to smuggle out for me. I do not think they kill you anymore for smuggling it out of China. WINDY Quote To all those who think ..........................
Contributing Member Denise Posted February 24, 2009 Contributing Member Report Posted February 24, 2009 I've been thinking about your question. It won't matter what you say as far as George (using Suze's names) is concerned. If he can't tell the difference now, what you say won't change his mind and he will just defend his hero even louder. Anything you say about your own work may appear like you are being defensive and putting down Darin's work. That doesn't look good to anyone, even if they know what you are saying is true. The only way I see as being gracious and positive is to agree that Zeke is a great leatherworker. Then point out some of the strong points in Zeke's work and explain why it is so great. That educates those who don't know what to look for yet, and then they can do the comparisons on their own between your work, Zeke's work and Darin's work. Those who have eyes to see will see, and those that don't, won't. But the opportunity to learn has been presented and you haven't cut down anybody. In the long run, how you treat people will have a huge effect on your credibility. How you say something is often more important that what you say. Quote
RustyMelton Posted February 24, 2009 Report Posted February 24, 2009 (edited) John, why ask all this now since you have already publicy confronted him yesterday? I notice you have left out some elements in your story. If your gonna tell the story you should at least give all the details. You act like Darins case is junk, you don't acually say that but in several instances you have tried to cast a dark light on it. For example when you said all the two case makers have in common is they both work with leather. Have you actually seen this case or any of his cases in person? You don't seem to care about educating all the uneducated when they procaim your work as the greatest, is your work the greatest? I noticed no mention of how you sent pms to at least one of Darins customers about his work and how it may not live up to the words the customer used to describe it when it was put up for resale. Thats just poor business in my humble opinion. I wonder if this is somemore of your educating people. Another example of your educating is when Chaz Dillion posted his first attempt at a case that wasn't even finished on AZ and here come your criticizems on his stampings. Why make that public and not send a pm. If someone did that to you the firestorm would start. I hope all posters have made you feel validated. To me it makes no difference one way or the other what you say but everyone should remember there are two sides to every story. Edited February 24, 2009 by RustyMelton Quote
JohnBarton Posted February 25, 2009 Author Report Posted February 25, 2009 RustyMelton said: John, why ask all this now since you have already publicy confronted him yesterday? I notice you have left out some elements in your story. If your gonna tell the story you should at least give all the details. You act like Darins case is junk, you don't acually say that but in several instances you have tried to cast a dark light on it. For example when you said all the two case makers have in common is they both work with leather. Have you actually seen this case or any of his cases in person? You don't seem to care about educating all the uneducated when they procaim your work as the greatest, is your work the greatest? I noticed no mention of how you sent pms to at least one of Darins customers about his work and how it may not live up to the words the customer used to describe it when it was put up for resale. Thats just poor business in my humble opinion. I wonder if this is somemore of your educating people. Another example of your educating is when Chaz Dillion posted his first attempt at a case that wasn't even finished on AZ and here come your criticizems on his stampings. Why make that public and not send a pm. If someone did that to you the firestorm would start. I hope all posters have made you feel validated. To me it makes no difference one way or the other what you say but everyone should remember there are two sides to every story. First, I am asking a group of my peers how they would handle a situation not defending how I did it. I like Suze's approach. Secondly, I never said that Darrin's work is junk, I have only said that it is NOT YET at the standard that Darin's customers have said it is. Yes, perhaps the comment about Zeke and Darin only having working leather in common was harsh but it wasn't really meant to be and an apology is warranted for that. So I formally apologize to "Darin" for that comment. Who is Chaz Dillon in our HYPOTHETICAL story? :-) But yes when new leather worker Chaz comes on and invites comments and I see something I comment on it. I put my work up all the time and get criticized and what I do is use that criticism to get better. If the issue is structural then I find a way to fix it, it the issue is decorative then I find a way to get better there. I believe that I have taken more heat than any newbie ever has not only for what I make, but how I make it, where it's made, and even how much profit they think I make. People take the liberty to tell me what to make, where I am allowed to make it, and how much I am allowed to charge - so yeah it's a grievance when a newbie comes on and people start proclaiming that this person is the next messiah, especially when their work isn't there yet. - Now as Windy said some people CAN DO more in a year than a so-called veteran has done in 50. That is why I just look at the work and not the person. I have not personally seen Darin's work that is true. But I have seen Erik's and hung out with Erik and know his work pretty well. I think that after 18 years of doing this and studying these things I have become somewhat adept at seeing the differences in the work. Now, can I go further and see the differences in stroke and technique caused by inexperience, wrong or inadequate tools, use of certain finish methods and so on? No I can't because, as I have stated many times, I am not a tooler. As for telling someone that an item described as being the best in the world may not live up to that description when put up for resale what is not true or fair about that? If I took a no-name saddle maker's saddle and went and bragged about it and said something like this guy is as good as Chester Hape and Don King when it isn't YET and someone ended up buying that saddle based on that testimonial then tried to resell it to someone who IS familiar with the work of those two then the reseller would get his ass laughed out of town. Don't we laugh at the noobs who come on the pool forums trying to sell us "collectible signed Balabuskas"? Think about it. You know what the person I wrote that to said in reply Rusty? He said that he is only building up the work to "protect his investment" and that I should let the buying public remain ignorant of what truly great leather work is. Shall I also share his PRIVATE communication to me in order to prove that to you? Do you feel the same way? I know that you are a humble guy and don't feel that your work is YET in the same league as some of your famous colleagues. But do you feel that you do Sheridan carving "as good as anyone else in the world"? That is one of the things that has been said about your work from the person who is protecting his investment. As for myself, while I have accepted praise for our decorative work, I point towards the giants in leather decorating to let my customers know what I am aiming at. You know this full well because I have done it many times. I don't let others do my marketing and accept accolades I haven't earned yet. However when someone says something like my cue cases are the best one for the money then I don't disagree with them because I feel that this is correct. That is my stated goal and we have reached at least that. When someone says your case, or so-and-so's is the best for the money and it's not then I don't contradict them unless it's part of a debate I am in and we are doing apples-to-apples comparisions. Otherwise I let it slide because value is also relative. But when someone proclaims that another brand is more protective and that is not a fact and I say something about it. That's how I roll, I accept criticism, defend where I need to and and change where I need to. As for the decoration aspect though I understand that art is subjective by nature. Prior to beginning again in 2007 I didn't spend a lot of time on the decoration of our cases. We had tooled cases in our line that were done by a Czech tooler and later done in house at the factory in Taiwan, the Taiwanese learned through books and tapes I bought from Tandy leather. I couldn't have told you if our tooling was good or bad in comparision to anyone else's whether on cue cases or any other leather goods. Ok well I could tell you if it was bad because even I could see if the impressions weren't straight, or consistent, or the coloring was off, and sometimes all of these things showed up. BUT when I decided to get back into it and I knew that I WANTED to be part of the beauty contest in cue cases I knew that I should start to study and learn and grow as to what really good decorative work is so I could make sure that whatever we were putting on our cases would not only be accepted by the largely ignorant public but would be accepted by discerning collectors and most importantly by leather crafters themselves. And every case we do we try to improve and try new things, try to emulate the best that we see and hopefully someday become one of the best. And I am sure that your goal isn't much different in that you want to be the best you can with what you do. My problem isn't with you or your work. My problem is with people who unfairly hype your work and put it where it doesn't yet belong. What qualifies me to even make such a statement? Nothing really except that I feel you haven't yet reached the level of the top guys in Sheridan carving based on the work I see from those guys and based on what I have so-far seen from you. So that is absolutely just my layman's opinion, just as the opinion of the person "protecting" his investment is that you are already "as good as anyone else in the world." So if he can state his opinion then I should be able to state mine on the same subject. Or do you feel it should be just one-sided? I just go step futher and provide examples of work from those considered the best in the world and let people see what that is. In conclusion Rusty, since you made this open. I have nothing against you. I think your work is great and getting better. The case that Craig showed off is your best piece yet in my opinion. I already told you that I am proud of you for listening to me about paying attention to the protectiveness of your interiors. I have always fought against inaccuracy and hype when it comes to cue cases (the only subject that one-dimensional me really knows anything about) and will continue to do so. Whether is is the guy selling knockoffs claiming that his products are as good as such and such name brand or the person touting the next great case maker by putting him on the highest pedestal you will find me to be the one to give a reality check. Is this selfish? You bet it is, because I also have to protect my investment and the best way I know to do that is to follow the same formula I always have. Educate the customer and allow them then to make their own comparisons and hope that their choice is what I make. Along the way it also promotes better products all the way around which only helps us all. (my altruistic moment of Zen). Sincerely, John Barton - hypothetical cue case maker :-) Denise said: I've been thinking about your question. It won't matter what you say as far as George (using Suze's names) is concerned. If he can't tell the difference now, what you say won't change his mind and he will just defend his hero even louder. Anything you say about your own work may appear like you are being defensive and putting down Darin's work. That doesn't look good to anyone, even if they know what you are saying is true. The only way I see as being gracious and positive is to agree that Zeke is a great leatherworker. Then point out some of the strong points in Zeke's work and explain why it is so great. That educates those who don't know what to look for yet, and then they can do the comparisons on their own between your work, Zeke's work and Darin's work. Those who have eyes to see will see, and those that don't, won't. But the opportunity to learn has been presented and you haven't cut down anybody. In the long run, how you treat people will have a huge effect on your credibility. How you say something is often more important that what you say. I agree. I really really really need to work on the "how" to say something. In Germany they say the tone makes the music. Thank you. Quote Support Quality. We are all humans. Buy the best no matter where it's made. That way everyone lives in harmony. Nature knows no flags.
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