How do I do the fringe?

[steve mason]

"the most insulting statement ever" WOW, not sure what you read between the lines but that is not what I meant. I have read and reread my post and I can't see where I made such an insulting statement. I never said any such that thing that I was better than anyone here because I use a round knife and they don't. What I said was that a round knife is made to cut leather and a utility knife is not designed to cut leather, they will and do break, I don't believe that they are a safe tool to use. You can go ahead and use whatever tool you like, on my bench there is and never will be a utility knife. I will not appologize as I feel I did no wrong. I stand by may statement.

I do not use a round knife because it is traditional, I use one because it is what works best for me, if it does not work for you then don't use one. A quote from a great saddle maker whom I respect very much is "you can use the broad side of an axe if it gets the job done" Round knifes gets the job done for me.

ps; this is a good discussion, it's good to get heated up a little once in a while.

Steve

Steve,

I have looked at your website and seen the beautiful stuff you make and respect your work enormously. You are obviously a very skilled craftsman; that notwithstanding, I still think this is the most insulting statement I have ever seen on this forum. How can you even suggest that the people who work so hard to make the wonderful, exciting things we see on a daily basis here aren't as good as you just because they don't use a round knife to cut their leather?

I am absolutely astounded. ...and Randy, your comment wasn't much better.

Ray

[flathat4life]

A "SHARP" round knife and a see through straight edge are my two tools of choice. Depending on the chap leather i'l use a cork back ruler... The box knife would be my next favorite "if" i didn't have a good sharp round knife. Since the razor blades are so thin, they will glide through the leather like a sharp round knife. As soon as the blades start draging a little bit, just swawp out with a new one and keep cutting. I've cut out alot of leather with one and still use it on some things. Try getting the contractor grade blades from your local hardware store if worryed about snaping them. In my opinion, you shouldn't have a problem with the regular economy ones as long as your handling your knife right. When i first got started, i used a roler knife. Being self taught I didn't know better. I'v found that for one you cant get a straight up crisp start cut on the fring line with the circlar blade. Secound is that after a few cuts the knife will start pushing the leather a cause it to stretch out from under the ruler. That can result in a inconsistant width and crispness to your fringe.. i'v attached a pair of armitas that i built a while back. i used the box knife to cut everything because its all i had at the time. Everybody has there own opinion way of doing things. The reason i started useing a round knife is because to me its just the best and easyist cutting thing out there.Plus its a traditional tool. As Steve and others have said, the round knife has been used by the best saddle makers for over a hundred years for a reason....It shouldn't matter what tool you use just as long as the blade is sharp... figure out what works best for you and stick with it.

I'm young and enexsperianced so take my words with a grain of salt...

Jed

[2MadJacks]

Hello Steve,

I would like to clearify what I thought about your first statement. As I work mids and now have gotten some sleep and time to think after my first statement. I believe what blew me away was that it sounds as if you are implying, since some of us also use other knivesrazors along with the round knife, that we don't have a QUALITY leather shop. This is just was what my eyes seen in your post. Also I guess I better mention that I use a rotary knife to cut my fringe.

And yes is good and fun to get a little heated in our debates, thats what makes us all great crafters.

James,

Also your work is outstanding.

[Windy]

Wow , I had to laugh to keep from crying upon reading this thread.

I am just glad that it was not an old master leather worker who

put the first tire on a car. Can you imagine Henry Ford talking to

Harvey Firestone in the early days as Firestone told Ford "I have

been making tires for a ten thousand years and stone tires are the only

way to go" . Or how the look on that old Chinese math teacher's face

when someone said I have a computer for adding up the numbers and

he said why I have some beads on a board(abacus) that works just fine

and I have been using it for five thousand years. Then a guy tells his wife

he bought her a new electric oven and she says why women have

cooked over a wood fire since the beginning of time. Then there

was the surgeon who said what stainless steel, surgeons have been

using sharpened rocks for a hundred years to cut open people, why

only a non professional surgeon would use a stainless steel super

sharp scalpel. Do I need to go on afore you people see how silly you

are. I believe it was Bill Gates who said " I see no reason anyone

would need a computer faster than the 486". Oh and one more just

for fun , what do you mean you invented indoor plumbing , people

have been going in the woods since the beginning of time.I reckon

my point is just because someone who is a master does mean that

they are always right. We all can learn something even from a person

who just took up the craft or trade.

And to the guy who says all blades break , sure they do if you abuse

them. A knife is for cutting , not prying and never to be used as a

screwdriver. And believe it or not a knife is not a hammer either even

though I have seen more than one person use it as one.

WINDY

[ChuckBurrows]

Yes an interesting conversation but a couple of observations if I may.

1) Yes round/head knives were purpose designed for cutting leather, but are mainly traditional to saddlery and harness making and are much older than 100 years or so. They were and are seldom used in other leather trades such as luggage making, bag making, shoe making, and book binding. In these latter trades the traditional knives are more often straight knives or clicker knives - both blades being not much difference in thickness from the modern utility knife and in the case of the clicker knife the blades are much narrower so possibility of breakage is higher than with good utility blades

So while head/round knives are traditional they are not the only traditional leather knives and are mainly traditional as noted for saddlery/harness where one encounters thicker leather frequently and they do shine for that purpose in particular, but whether they are the best for all usages depends on the user and materials as much as the tool. FWIW - I'm pretty much a dyed in the wool traditionalist and have been studying leather craft, mostly historic from medieval times to the 19th century for 48 years (as a pro since about 1970), and often what we consider traditional tooling is in fact fairly modern in the grand scheme.

2) Safety - yes utility knife makers cover their back sides with safety warnings, but that's more due to the possibility of litigation in today's society rather than some massive number of accidents. It makes me laugh/cry when I see some of the safety warnings put on products these days. Good quality utility blades (I like Persona brand) are as safe as can be and yes there is always the possibility that they can break, but frankly the thought of an amateur leather crafter using a head/round knife without proper hands on training is much scarier - they are not a tool for the uninitiated, the possibility for a serious accident is much higher in my opinion and yes I used then for many years, but due to various circumstances I now prefer other knives, including utility knives, even though I have been a pro knifemaker since the 1970's and can and have made my own leather knives of various types.

Also one should consider the numbers of utility blades users in all trades as compared to the use of head knives - I'm willing to bet that it's thousand to one - there are a fair number of leather crafters using head/round knives, but the numbers are small compared to the number of people every day using utility knives and often using them for much tougher jobs than cutting leather - cutting sheet rock and carpet are two off the top of my head. So yes having a utility blade break should be a safety concern, but frankly in some 35+ years using utility knives for working leather as well as in construction I've only seriously broken a couple of blades, more often just the tip breaks off when cutting a tight corner. So IMO the idea that they are some how more unsafe than a head/round knife doesn't compute........

Razor knifes are for cutting open cardboard they have no other place in a quality leather makers shop. You will be a much better leather worker in the long run if you learn to use the right tools for the right job at the time.

Steve - with respect this is the part that caused some hackles to raise - the implication being that you're not a quality maker unless one uses the tools that you deem as proper - an opinion "colored" IMO by you being a saddle maker using the tools traditional to that trade, which as I noted are far from being the only traditional leather working tools.......and perhaps not so oddly any time the use of a head/round knife comes up in these discussion it is almost invariably saddle/harness makers who tout their sterling qualities as being the "best". FWIW - Technically or semantically anyway a razor knife or box cutter isn't the same thing as a utility knife.

I do agree with the latter part of your statement, but what is the right tool can depend on the user as well as the end use .....for instance there was a gent back in the 1930-40's, whose name escapes me, who did some of the most fantastic leather carving ever done - his carving knife - a sharpened screw driver (oddly a tool whose blade shape was not too dissimilar to the knives used for carving prior to the introduction of the swivel knife in the early 20th Century). One of my earliest teachers in the craft refused to use a mallet for tooling, he used only the to him traditional dapping stick - something I never could get the hang of. These tools worked for them and isn't that's what counts? As you stated use

IMO everyone should try various tools and find what works best for them - there is no single best way to do anything and after studying old tools for years it's amazing how many variations and individualized tools there are so I reckon I'm not the only one that sees things that way.......

Back to the subject: As to cutting fringe - again there's more than one way, but here's how I mostly do it ...

In my work, which these days is most often 19th Century Indian style, which uses soft leathers such as elk or deer (mostly braintan or chamois) and is quite often 24-30" long or longer, I dampen and pre-stretch the hides for fringe and leave hang for a couple of days in the sun - if need be I re-stretch. This helps immensely and does no damage. I then use good sharp industrial scissors, but I DO NOT saw my way through (no blisters!)- rather I start the cut and slide/glide the shears through the leather - with practice it's easy to cut even very fine fringe. No it's no 100% perfect, but then nothing I do anyway is - only the "Great Spirit" is perfect...

The other option I use when cutting shorter lengths is similar to Luke - I dampen the backside so it "sticks" to the surface of the cutting board ( I use those one of those self-healing boards fro fringe). Then dampen the face so that the straight edge (I use a 1" wide galvanized metal strip) will "stick" and then cut with a sharp knife (your choice of course!).

In both cases I keep a strop handy and continually strop my cutting instrument......

as always - other mileage WILL vary.........

Edited February 26, 2009 by ChuckBurrows

[ferret]

Results of using various methods to cut fringe in soft leather and suede

1) utiliyt knife and steel rule:- leather stretches and doesn't always cut through on one pass, strands uneven and looks crap.

2) rotary knife and steel rule:- leather stretches and doesn't cut as well as the utility knife, strands uneven and looks crap and smells of cheese (maybe I should have washed the knife after using it on the pizza).

3) head knife and steel rule:- leather stretches but cuts on one pass,still uneven and looks crap.

4) jerry stripper:- leather stretches but cuts ok, still uneven and crap but much quicker.

5) get someone else to do it (a friend who knows nothing about leatherwork and uses housold scissors):- no stretch, even strands.

[tonyc1]

I'd never heard the term Box Cutter until 9/11, out here we always called them Stanley Knives. I've used them to cut Plaster Board ( Sheet Rock ) but you are really only cutting the heavy paper coating and then snapping the sheet along the score line and the plaster blunts the blades really quickly. I do sometimes use a clicking knife sometimes but never "Box Cutters". I don't think the blades are as sharp as a knife blade that I can sharpen myself.

Tony.

[ChuckBurrows]

I don't think the blades are as sharp as a knife blade that I can sharpen myself.

FWIW - I polish/strop utility blades that same as I do any other blades......

[badger]

The international nature of the board means there are bound to be issues of nomenclature and semantics.

We, here in the UK have been 'Hoovered' and 'Fridged' and 'Xeroxed' into using the term 'Stanley knife' to mean any utility knife. I am aware of other countries having different names for these.

To me, a Stanley Knife is one of those in the pic below. I'm assuming Razor knife and box cutter are variants of the same thing. Might be worth clearing this up.

Oh yeah, what Chuck Burrows said. Nice one Chuck.

I use Irwin blades, reground, resharpened and stropped to a mirror finish. I'm still on my first one..............

Cheers,

Karl

[greg gomersall]

use whatever you want! finger's will grow back. just remember " a man who will rent a pig will stop at nothing." Greg

[gtwister09]

It is funny and sad what people read into a post but that's the nature of the beast when we can't see the person we are talking to.

After several comments (some rather heated and some nice asking for clarification) sent via emails and personal messages I would like to clarify that my "ALL" statements is that all utility blades will and can break even the high dollar Titanium blades. I know that I have personally broke the tips on about 10 or so out of about 700 - 800 of them. Looking back on the ones that snapped only one of them was from a higher quality manufacturer and it failed on the first cut due to metal fatigue. ...no user error on thta one either. It failed in the first 1/2 cut on a piece of sheetrock...not exactly the hardest material to cut. I still use these things as well for all sorts of uses.

It was not meant to say THAT EVERY UTILITY BLADE BREAKS. Maybe that is a subtle difference to some and I would have thought that reading the 2nd post with clarifications about the new blade snapping and further explanations of the position would have cleared that up. Sorry that I didn't communicate that completely.

I agree that the warnings are for litigation especially when you read warnings for hemorrhoid creams that say that they are not to be take orally. However the warnings are also there because someone has had that problem.

As to fitness for use, my Dad started doing leatherwork at 70. A utility knife is what he uses. For him that is the best choice that he could make because he is sharpening challenged. He uses the Titanium blades from Lenox and they last a lot longer. Since he doesn't like to sharpen he can get a new sharp blade by switching blades either end for end or a new one when both are used up.

Sorry that I didn't answer some of the emails but here's my response.

Regards,

Ben

[steve mason]

This thread is awesome.

[2MadJacks]

[Luke Hatley]

hey all ,keep em comming i am learning a lots.

An old saddle maker told me."do what works best for you,but dont forget what

the finished product is supposed to look like".

THANKS ALL FOR YOU SUGGESTIONS.............

[Randy Cornelius]

To UKRay,

I am sorry that you took offense to my statement, it was not my intent to look down upon someone with less experiance. I started out the same way many years ago using whatever I could to cut leather. I made some mistakes, got injured but nothing that did not heal and broke a lot of blades and went through a lot of those blades. I became frustrated and went looking for something else. I knew of a saddlemaker not far from me and called him up out of the blue one day and he invited me to his shop. I saw all these round knives hanging around and he showed me how to use on. Let me tell you I was impressed. They cut leather with ease, and you cut away from you, not toward you like a box cutter. I would just like to say that this business is a learning experiance, I learn something every day and I keep an open mind. That saddle maker opened my eyes to something I had been struggling with for a long time. The feel of a sharp round knife as it goes through leather like a hot knife through butter is a feeling that I will not forget. You should try one. Just keep an open mind.

Again, I am sorry if you were offended.......

Randy

[steve mason]

use whatever you want! finger's will grow back. just remember " a man who will rent a pig will stop at nothing." Greg

gummy that's the best laugh I've had all day, gotta like Gus.

that reminds of a favorite quote of my wifes

"Never try to teach a pig to sing:

it just frustrates you and annoys the pig"

[Windy]

gummy that's the best laugh I've had all day, gotta like Gus.

that reminds of a favorite quote of my wifes

"Never try to teach a pig to sing:

it just frustrates you and annoys the pig"

Funny how one quote makes one think of another quote. After reading

your wife's quote I am reminded of "you can not teach an old dog new tricks"

which reminds me of another quote " better to say nothing and let them

think you a fool , than open your mouth and prove it"

WINDY

[tonyc1]

The international nature of the board means there are bound to be issues of nomenclature and semantics.

We, here in the UK have been 'Hoovered' and 'Fridged' and 'Xeroxed' into using the term 'Stanley knife' to mean any utility knife. I am aware of other countries having different names for these.

To me, a Stanley Knife is one of those in the pic below. I'm assuming Razor knife and box cutter are variants of the same thing. Might be worth clearing this up.

Oh yeah, what Chuck Burrows said. Nice one Chuck.

I use Irwin blades, reground, resharpened and stropped to a mirror finish. I'm still on my first one..............

Cheers,

Karl

Stanley actually had a factory here in town and only closed down about 10 years ago. They used to make good tools. Do Stanley still make anything around the world?

Tony.

[steve mason]

fool you say, I love being a fool.

Here are a few more quotes from my foolish shop to your foolish shop.

"it takes a lot of pancakes to fill a barn"

"it takes a mighty big chicken to pull a cultivator"

and my favorite foolish tip of all time

"never, I mean never play leapfrog with a unicorn"

Steve

Edited February 26, 2009 by steve mason

[dbusarow]

"it takes a lot of pancakes to fill a barn"

"it takes a mighty big chicken to pull a cultivator"

Steve,

These two quotes made me laugh out loud. I can't figure out what type of situation they'd work in though. Any suggestions? I really want to try them out some time

Dan

[UKRay]

Randy,

I'm grateful for your post and accept your apology without reservation. Like you, I appreciate a good round knife and, after 30 odd years, I know what it can do but I have also seen what other leatherworkers like Luke and the rest can achieve using alternative knives and feel humbled. My work, with or without a round knife, rarely meets their incredibly high standards so please understand that I couldn't let the implied criticizm stand.

People who can make fine saddles will always command my respect; but I feel a large measure of respect is also due to others on this forum. Hopefully, forum members will always want to learn from experienced guys like you and Steve but even suggesting that their fine work is somehow inadequate (either intentionally or unintentionally) is IMHO both hurtful and unworthy.

Ray

[Hennessy]

i wonder what dusty 'd do pete

[bruce johnson]

Pete,

If we were to vote on it, there would be some good company but yours would be the funniest today in my opinion.

[greg gomersall]

i wonder what dusty 'd do pete

probably a circular saw.

[Windy]

fool you say, I love being a fool.

Here are a few more quotes from my foolish shop to your foolish shop.

"it takes a lot of pancakes to fill a barn"

"it takes a mighty big chicken to pull a cultivator"

and my favorite foolish tip of all time

"never, I mean never play leapfrog with a unicorn"

Steve

Steve ,

You may not believe this but first job was filling a barn with pancakes.

I was pretty lucky for two reasons. One it was a small barn and two there

was a IHOP next door.You are right it takes a lot of pancakes to fill even

a small barn and I do not even want to tell you how much maple syrup it

took.

WINDY