RMB Custom Leather Report post Posted March 24, 2009 I have alot of old name brand (Harley Davidson,Ford,Chevy,Mustang,Colt,Browning) stamps that was given to me by another leathersmith who bought them over the counter in the 70's and 80's. I was wondering if anyone hand any first hand information on the legal rights that a stamp owner has inorder to use them on work to sale. They are not for sale! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bree Report post Posted March 24, 2009 The marks of these companies are trademarks and are protected under law. Harley Davidson for example WILL vigorously defend its trademark... guaranteed. The only way that you can use these marks is under license from the owner of the mark. That inevitably means compliance with strict standards of use and payment of licensing fees. I have a website www.dynawide.com. Harley Davidson owns the trademark Dyna Wide Glide. If I tried to market any motorcycle related product on that site, Harley Davidson would very quickly have a cease and desist order in my hands and likely a lawsuit to recover damages to their Dyna Wide Glide mark under the theory that within the same industry my site name is too similar and would cause confusion in the mind of the buyer and damage to their brand. Would I lose that fight?? Most likely yes. I have no desire to even test it. I can't beat HD's capacity to hire and sustain attorney's to litigate the issue. Your stamps are probably worthless except as momentos or souvenirs IMHO. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rdb Report post Posted March 24, 2009 Not an Attorney here, but, IF they are manufactured stamps, and not hand made, then the manufacturer (in the 70s) probably paid a license fee to make the stamps. If Harley, etc licensed the maker, then I would say it is legitimate to use them. CAVEAT: If Harley, etc, in their licensing states that the designs cannot be used in making things for sale, that would mean they can only be used for personal use. BUT, if the seller of the stamps did not inform the buyers of this, then all bets are off. HOWEVER, Bree is right..ANY litigation by Harley, etc , win, lose, or draw, would be more than the average Joe/Joelene can handle financially. Look up the manufacturer, call them, call Harley, etc legal offices and ask...it can't hurt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gtwister09 Report post Posted March 24, 2009 I have direct experience with the Harley group. Over 10 years ago I contacted them and asked about using the stamp. They started off with a you can't use that stamp response, I told them that they had sold it under license to a leather company. Why in the world would anyone buy them now knowing that they could not use it? The lady was quite nice and explained that their licensing had changed and that these were no longer legal. Their concern was for the loss of funds and/or the quality of the items sold. I asked if I could license these by sending samples and them approving them. She said no. She told me that I would have to return the stamp because I could not use it. I told her that I would be happy to if they would pay me what I had paid for it. She chuckled and said that would not happen and that I really should send it to them to keep others from making the same mistake. A week later they sent me a registered letter with return receipt requested essentially stating that if I was foolish enough to use it that they would prosecute me to the fullest extent. They stated that the licensing that covered the stamps when they were made had been modified and was no longer a viable license even if it was to the original purchaser. The rest of the letter was blah.blah,blah. Regards, Ben Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Billy P Report post Posted March 24, 2009 I had 2 Harley Stamps. I bought them years ago, probably about 74 or 75. When I first got them everybody wanted them and they were legal to use then too. Over the years the demand for the use of the stamps died off, at least in my section of the world. Anyway it got to be more trouble than they were worth, and too much temptation to use even every now and then. Anyway a couple of years ago I listed them on E-Bay and sold them at a pretty good price. I told the people that they could get into a world of s**t by using them, but I didn't care what they did with them as long as I got my money. That was the best thing for me, getting rid of those stamps. Like I said back then, USE AT YOUR OWN RISK, because there can and probably will be consequences and repercussions for useing any thing marked Harley Davidson, Ford, Chevy, ect. Oh yeah I have a Ford stamp, a Chevy, and a Rebel Flag stamp too, but they are not for sale right now. Billy P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Luke Hatley Report post Posted March 25, 2009 BILLY I HAVE THE 3 HARLEY STAMPS.... DONT USE THEM THAT MUCH, MATTER OF FACT THE BIKERS AROUND HERE DONT WANT THE HARLEY LOGO... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MADMAX22 Report post Posted March 25, 2009 I was informed that the only thing for the harley logo was harley davidson, and that the logo sheild and the other stuff like live to ride ride to live were not trademarks of harley and fare game. However this wasnt from a lawer so who knows. However once you take that shield and put HD or harley or davidson on it then its done. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bree Report post Posted March 25, 2009 The HD Bar and Shield are trademarks and are protected. There is simply no way that you can use all or part of a Harley trademark without placing yourself in jeopardy. If you make money from it, you stand to lose it... now or years from now in the future. The message is just don't do it. Save yourself a MAJOR headache and don't use trademarks without permission. Ben's experience is very similar to the experience of others I know that get zapped just by inquiring! They defend the brand and the brand's marks tenaciously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Billy P Report post Posted March 25, 2009 Both of mine had Harley-Davidson Motor Cycles on them. Billy P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bustedlifter Report post Posted March 26, 2009 The HD Bar and Shield are trademarks and are protected. There is simply no way that you can use all or part of a Harley trademark without placing yourself in jeopardy. If you make money from it, you stand to lose it... now or years from now in the future. The message is just don't do it. Save yourself a MAJOR headache and don't use trademarks without permission.Ben's experience is very similar to the experience of others I know that get zapped just by inquiring! They defend the brand and the brand's marks tenaciously. The local independent bike shop I frequent has a neon light fixture with the bar and shield and an eagle. The owner displays it in the front window until he gets a cease and desist letter from H-D's mouthpieces. Then it goes into his office for a couple of months only to return to the front window when the furor dies down.He specializes in H-D and is a big fan of their bikes but he isn't "officially" licensed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bree Report post Posted March 27, 2009 The local independent bike shop I frequent has a neon light fixture with the bar and shield and an eagle. The owner displays it in the front window until he gets a cease and desist letter from H-D's mouthpieces. Then it goes into his office for a couple of months only to return to the front window when the furor dies down.He specializes in H-D and is a big fan of their bikes but he isn't "officially" licensed. All I can say is that "fools rush in where angels fear to tread." The guy is like a moth flitting closer and closer to the candle's flame. Sooner or late he is going to get too close and get burned. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bustedlifter Report post Posted March 30, 2009 All I can say is that "fools rush in where angels fear to tread." The guy is like a moth flitting closer and closer to the candle's flame. Sooner or late he is going to get too close and get burned. He's been in the business for 30 years and I think he's had the light for about 1/2 that time. It's currently been up for almost 3 years. I think the company has more urgent concerns than some independent shop's neon sign. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolvenstien Report post Posted March 30, 2009 I specialize around here in making tool bags for bikes. Almost every one of them have the bikes brand name CARVED into the top flap. INDIAN, HARLEY, HONDA, SUZUKI, KAWASAKI.... Or it had the model name such as MAGNA, SPORSTER, 883, DYNA, BOULEVARD.... or whatever. These are handmade, one of a kind, functional, works of art. All carving are in the style of the manufacturer as was either printed or painted on the bike, or displayed in their literature if the paint and chrome on the bike is custom and you cannot copy the likeness. Personally, if Harley or Honda want to get pissy for me giving them free advertising.... Well.... it is art.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bree Report post Posted March 30, 2009 I specialize around here in making tool bags for bikes. Almost every one of them have the bikes brand name CARVED into the top flap. INDIAN, HARLEY, HONDA, SUZUKI, KAWASAKI.... Or it had the model name such as MAGNA, SPORSTER, 883, DYNA, BOULEVARD.... or whatever. These are handmade, one of a kind, functional, works of art. All carving are in the style of the manufacturer as was either printed or painted on the bike, or displayed in their literature if the paint and chrome on the bike is custom and you cannot copy the likeness. Personally, if Harley or Honda want to get pissy for me giving them free advertising.... Well.... it is art.... I would suggest that it is a commercial product that is sold with the advantage of their proprietary trademarks. Using HD's name or their marks is very dangerous if you charge money and especially if you are selling anything connected to motorcycles. If there can be any confusion in the mind of a consumer as to whether you have any association with them, you are in trouble. If there can be any idea that you are approved by, recommended by, endorsed by etc. you have violated their rights and they have a case. Remember that they sell tool bags and you are competing against them using their marks that they paid to develop, market, and build!! That competition is unfair and they have rights. As for the bar and shield... we have a guy just outside of Buffalo who was using it and the name the Hog Farm. The MOCO got aggravated and whacked him for both. They lost on the HOG Farm but they won on the bar and shield. Here is the ruling: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getc...2nd/979446.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaltonMasterson Report post Posted September 21, 2009 I have a Baron stamp that is eerily similar to the H-D trademark. It says Live to Ride Ride to Live I believe. I have used it once for a guys key fob. I wonder if its close enough to get me in trouble? I also have a Colt one made by Baron, that I know can get me a cease and desist letter. Colt is very fond of sending letters to a gunsmith friend of mine. DM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaveT Report post Posted September 30, 2009 Remember too, that a company will ALWAYS tell you they own everything, including your underwear and soul if you ask them. The truth is somewhat less drastic. It has been my experience that many companies are quick with the cease and desist letters, but also know that they haven't got a case if it gets to court. They gamble that they can bully individuals into giving up if they bluster enough. Case in point, "The Jeep Bar" in Wyoming. After Chrysler bought Jeep from AMC, A letter went out to the owner of the bar, who had been called "Jeep" since before there were Jeeps. Jeep being the noise made by and old cartoon character (Popeye cartoon I think). He won. Took a while, but gist was that he was not competing in the same business as Chrysler, so the trademark had no standing, and if he had wanted he could have sued Chrysler for use of his name! If you use a trademark name on a one of a kind piece of artwork, I believe it falls under the same fair use laws as a literary quote. Otherwise, how did Andy Warhol get away with selling prints of Campbell soup cans? Dave T. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
