Casing Question

[Bryan]

Still getting the hang of this forum. I'm re-posting my question here cuz I posted in a thread thats to old I guess. So my question is; How long can you keep a piece leather cased before you ruin it or it is no longer good to tool? I haven't tried keeping it in the fridge yet, so I'm sure that will help. I recently found out that letting your piece dry between tooling sessions will cause the tooled areas to raise when you re-wet to start tooling again! So my next project I kept cased till I was finished & it turned out way better. My latest project was much more involved & I worked on it for 3-4 days. I was starting to stress that I may ruin the leather before I finished tooling. I may have just kept it to wet though. I'm really not sure. Any info is greatly appreciated.

Thanks

[Tkleather1]

I have let leather stay cased for five days or so with no trouble but when I am not using it I put it in the fridge. by the time I am using it it is pretty dry though

Tim

[electrathon]

When I case I use a spray bottle and wet the piece a little while before I tool it. If I am not done that day, I let it dry. A few days, or weeks later when I am going agoin, I respray (I use pro-carve in the water). I have neevr noticed any negative side effercts from doing it this way.

Aaron

[azrider]

As I learn more I have been wondering about this as well. What do you mean about keeping cased? How did you do that? I have just used a sponge, let the leather case, and re-wet it as needed while tooling. If I stop, I have let it dry out and wet it again when I got back to it. I have heard about using the fridge, but haven't really understood why that needs to be done. I have not noticed any of my designs raising, but I am still learning. Hopefully some experts can chime in.

[Bryan]

As I learn more I have been wondering about this as well. What do you mean about keeping cased? How did you do that? I have just used a sponge, let the leather case, and re-wet it as needed while tooling. If I stop, I have let it dry out and wet it again when I got back to it. I have heard about using the fridge, but haven't really understood why that needs to be done. I have not noticed any of my designs raising, but I am still learning. Hopefully some experts can chime in.

I don't quite understand how the fridge deal works myself, just from reading here seems to be a good method. As far as keeping the leather cased I've just wet the piece once more after I finished tooling for the day & placed in a ziplock bag (used plastic wrap on a larger piece). It made quite a difference on my last project.

By the way; Thanks Tim & Aaron for the info!

Edited May 13, 2009 by Bryan

[Rawhide]

I have kept a piece cased for about 6 days under a smooth glass cutting board. You'll have to wet it well once (maybe twice depending on your environment) each day. Or you can put it in the fridge for long term casing. The fridge will retard any mold growth, and if you place it in a ziplock or press & seal wrap for larger items, it won't let the fibers dry out.

Re-wetting a dry piece will not kill the piece, but it will make tooling a little harder, because the water has a tendency to leach out the fats and oils used in the tanning process. I have been using a concoction lately dubbed the Ben Cox formula that seems to keep the flexibility in the leather even if it drys and you re-wet and it also gives a much better burninsh of the leather during tooling.

You can do a search on "baby shampoo" and find the recipie...it seems weird, but it smells good and cases great.

[DreadPirateRedbeard]

What is casing? I think I know but want to make sure!

[HorsehairBraider]

What is casing? I think I know but want to make sure!

This prepares leather for tooling. You get it wet in some way - some use plain water, some use a special formula (such as the one referred to above with baby shampoo in it) - and then, once it is thoroughly wet through and through, you let it start to dry until the surface just feels dry. Leather tools easier at that point.

It takes practice to get it to the perfect texture for tooling... every now and then I get it right and the leather tools really well... I still have a great deal to learn...

[DreadPirateRedbeard]

OK, I see then. I have never done it that way. I have a rather large pan that I fill with water, put it on the stove for a few minutes till it barely starts to steam but less than a low boil. I soak the leather in it till no more bubbles come out, let it hang for a couple of minutes till it stops dripping, wipe with a sponge to get the last of the surface moisture off and it tools great for me that way. I did the kidney piece for my jacket that way 3 or 4 times.

[Rawhide]

OK, I see then. I have never done it that way. I have a rather large pan that I fill with water, put it on the stove for a few minutes till it barely starts to steam but less than a low boil. I soak the leather in it till no more bubbles come out, let it hang for a couple of minutes till it stops dripping, wipe with a sponge to get the last of the surface moisture off and it tools great for me that way. I did the kidney piece for my jacket that way 3 or 4 times.

Redbeard,

That is a variation of the old way of casing. Looks like you've got it down packed. Bottom line is, do what works best for you.

Happy tooling!

[David]

As a solution to having the tooling become fainter when you re-wet; try glassing the leather first. This compacting of the leather will prevent the tooling from raising back up.

I don't use refrigeration because I don't like it at all. I can re-wet leather a dozen times in tooling a complex piece and it doesn't become harder or more difficult to tool.

Just a suggestion, this is what I do.

David Theobald

Edited May 13, 2009 by David

[MADMAX22]

That sounds alot easier then trying to put the stuff in the fridge David. I case with water and a few drops of dawn and it works great but I can hardly ever get a project finished in one day. I have been wrapping them in saran wrap and throwing them in the fridge.

Ill try letting them dry between goes at the leather. Great info all.

Also Redbeard thats pretty interesting way of doing it. Have to try that out one day.

[Hilly]

I'm a big fan of using a spray bottle with plain water, and a drop or two of detergent. Just spray the area I want to work on till it looks good and wet, let it sit a couple minutes till the color starts to look dry again, and tool away. This way I can work on a small area at a time, and not worry about having a big piece of leather wet for days, and risk mold growth. I also don't need to find a spot in the fridge for it.

Try experimenting on scrap, and find the method that works best for you. Most of all, enjoy learning!

[hidepounder]

I think my definition of casing seems to be different from other's definitions. I was taught that casing a piece of leather was not wetting it and letting it dry back to the point where it is ready to tool....that's just wetting the leather. Casing is where a piece of leather is wet and just before it is ready to tool it is placed in a casing box and allowed to sit overnight. The casing box was a wood box that was lined with sheet metal, to hold in the moisture. Now days we use plastic bags/boxes. The point of casing is to allow the leather to cure in a moist environment. You're trying to achieve a consistant moisture content throughout the piece of leather. When leather is dipped and allow to return to color, it is wetter in the center because the moisture has evaporated from the surface. It is very toolable at this point, but the moisture is not consistant throughtout. As a result, it may be a little more difficult to cut and less burnishing occurs from tooling. Properly cased leather cuts like butter and a lot more burnishing will occur when it is tooled.

Why the refrigerator? To prevent mold! If you are working on a large piece that may take a couple of days to complete, placing it a plastic bag helps maintain the moisture content....the refrigerator helps to prevent mold form forming. The need to use the refrigerator depends on you're particular environement.

It is most desirable to not let the leather dry completely out. When moisture is re-introduced after the leather is dry, the areas that are compressed from tooliing, primarily the beveled and shaded areas, absorb the moisture and begin to de-compress...similar to a sponge absorbing water. When re-tooled, the compression doesn't hold as well as it did initially.

Hope this makes sense...

Bob

Edited May 13, 2009 by hidepounder

[HarleyChef]

Ok, have to ask, why the baby shampoo or detergent? I re-wet all the time and don't notice any fading or problems with the burnishing...that being said, if I can get it to burnish a bit more, then I'm all for it.

[hidepounder]

Ok, have to ask, why the baby shampoo or detergent? I re-wet all the time and don't notice any fading or problems with the burnishing...that being said, if I can get it to burnish a bit more, then I'm all for it.

Using soaps in the water you use to initially wet the leather, helps the leather to cut a little better. I would guess that two things happen...one is that the soap may help lubricate the knife when cutting and secondly, it may reduce the rate that the steel blade reacts with the chemicals in the leather with causes a crystaline build-up on the blade, which creates drag.

Re-wetting is not a problem if the leather is not dried out. If you allow the leather to dry and then re-wet, that's when you will begin to notice it affecting the tooled areas. I re-wet all the time, I just try to be sure not to let the surface get too dry before using my spray bottle or sponge. On the other hand, if you over-wet the leather, that will affect the tooled areas, also.

One of the tricks to maintaining the optimum moisture content is to not try to tool too large an area at one time. On large pieces, I segment the areas to be tooled by covering them with plastic wrap. That way I can finish one area, taking advantage of the moisture in the leather, before uncovering the next area to tool.

Bob

[whinewine]

Ok, have to ask, why the baby shampoo or detergent? I re-wet all the time and don't notice any fading or problems with the burnishing...that being said, if I can get it to burnish a bit more, then I'm all for it.

Baby shampoo, or detergent, is a "surfactant'... It cuts the water tension & allows the water to run off (or, in the case of leather,) penetrate the leather more evenly than without it. Years ago, when we printed photos in darkrooms, we would use a Kodak product called 'photoflo' (or 'photo-flo' or 'photo flo'- I don't remember anymore- but you can still probably get it). It was a detergent (i.e., surfactant), and as such, allowed water to run off the freshly washed prints, negatives or slides in sheets, rather than in beads, thereby allowing them to air dry without water spots. The same thing goes for using surfactants in casing solution: they allow better penetration. By itself, it, I believe, has less to do with reducing drag than does the NFO or lexol. But it permits greater & more uniform penetration & this is a definite advantage when trying to case less than ideal carving leather.

Soap, btw is NOT a detergent.

russ

[hidepounder]

Russ,

Good explanation! You also pointed out a distinction that may be important...I don't know. I've always wondered if using a detergent or soap makes a difference. I wasn't taught to use a casing solution....I have only started using one in the last few years. I use Joy dishsoap in my solution.... it's not a detergent (I think). Why? Because someone suggested I try it and I liked it! I have not tried Lexol, yet, but I understand that is works very well. I also use Ivory bar soap on the surface before I cut. I wonder if the use of a detergent would have any negative or different effect on leather, or effect the final finish, which the soap does not seem to do.

The thing that I think is important that your explanation points to, is achieving a uniform absorbtion of moisture in the leather...which makes for optimal tooling! Casing as oppossed to wetting, helps to accomplish that. Your explanation of the effects of the soap (which I didn't know, BTW) makes sense! Adding soap seems to take this saturation level a step farther than just casing with water. Now, knowing the effects of soap, I am inclined to try the Lexol also (which is mostly soap, I believe).

Good stuff, thanks!

Bob

Russ...I edited this because when I re-read your post I realized that your explanation of a sufuctant was really referring to detergents. Does that mean we should be using detergents instead of soap, or do they both accomplish the same thing?

Edited May 13, 2009 by hidepounder

[HarleyChef]

Thanks for the explainations, you guys rock! I will be adding a drop or 2 of detergent to my spray bottle from now on. Thanks again!

[azrider]

Great thread! Thanks for explaining the why. I had heard or read some of these methods before, but didn't really know the reasons why they were used.

[Rawhide]

....Why? Because someone suggested I try it and I liked it!....

Bob, this is why I started using the baby shampoo and lexol formula...Bottom line is for me it keeps the leather flexible when it drys, so it's not hard as a rock and I like the burnish it gives...I got the suggestion from Bruce Johnson and have been using it ever since...

[Bryan]

Man, some really great info here! Thanks guys! So, it sounds like time is really not a factor as much as a proper & consistant moisture content. Is that right? With my work schedule I may not get back to tooling for a whole week. So that's o-k as long as I pay attention & re-wet when needed?

Also David, when you refer to compressing the leather with a "glassing" method, is that the same as "slicking"? Thats another topic I'm very interested in. Never heard of it till I came here.

Thanks again guys, really great!

[kevinhopkins]

Hi...one of the upshots of all this, is moisture content, as pretty much everyone has noted. And, as everyone has noted, the fridge does prevent mold, and keeps the leather from drying out. The carve eeze, shampoo, joy, and whatever else that we add to the water simply helps the leather to carve a bit smoother. But if you use some of those solutions too many times, the surface of the leather can begin to stiffen up, and not accept either water or dye terribly well. And you'd want to remember, that when you wet leather, and you're happily tooling away, and you notice that it seems a bit dry, and you need to add moisture, keep in mind that the leather is already wet...... it's just not wet enough! So be sparing as you add water. The conclusion of the matter is that for leather to tool well, and form well, the proper moisture content is needed. And it's experience that will tell you what that moisture level is. When you use quality leathers like Hermann Oak, or Wickett and Craig, or others of similar quality, moisture content will always be easier to deal with, simply because the leather is on your side! Happy Hammering!

Kevin

[hidepounder]

Man, some really great info here! Thanks guys! So, it sounds like time is really not a factor as much as a proper & consistant moisture content. Is that right? With my work schedule I may not get back to tooling for a whole week. So that's o-k as long as I pay attention & re-wet when needed?

Also David, when you refer to compressing the leather with a "glassing" method, is that the same as "slicking"? Thats another topic I'm very interested in. Never heard of it till I came here.

Thanks again guys, really great!

Yes Bryan, that is right. If you have a long stretch between tooling sessions, I suggest using the palstic wrap and tooling small sections at a time. I will say, though, a week is a long time to try to keep everything together.

I can't answer for David, but I'm confident that he is talking about slicking....and I agree with him....I slick everything also, before I tool. It does a great job of compacting the leather fibers and creating a more uniform surface to cut and tool. I use a smooth piece of glass that has a wood handle glued to it...made by Barry King. You can use acrylic or wood slickers also, however, they are easily nicked which puts scratches in the leather. In addition, slicking helps to take out some of the stretch out of the leather when you tool. I slick when I case and again before I cut the piece to size.

Hope this helps,

Bob

Edited May 14, 2009 by hidepounder

[whinewine]

Russ...I edited this because when I re-read your post I realized that your explanation of a sufuctant was really referring to detergents. Does that mean we should be using detergents instead of soap, or do they both accomplish the same thing?

Bob:

I am not a scientist, but there is a difference between soap & detergent. From what I remember from high school chemistry (several centuries ago), I think soap merely surrounds the dirt particles & allows them to be flushed away (think saddle soap- doesn't penetrate deeply & is not used for casing) whereas a detergent/surfactant breaks the surface tension of the water to allow for deeper cleaning by greater penetration. Photoflo is a detergent but doesn't make suds, so I'm thinking that what we think of 'detergent' actually has something in it to cause it to 'suds up' (maybe some soap???) to help flush away the dirt after the detergent has penetrated better than water and soap alone. So a tiny bit of baby shampoo added to the solution is more important as a detergent agent rather than the sudsing part itself, I would think.

russ